>As soon as a gun comes into play in
>ANY situation, whether the gun is wielded by the "bad guy" OR the
>"good guy," the likelihood of death or severe injury skyrockets.
IMHO there's a flaw here in the statement "the likelihood of death or
severe injury skyrockets"
You can't lump it together!
If death or severe injury happens to the "bad guy", that's a very, very
good thing. If death or severe injury happens to the "good guy" (me or my
niece) that's a very, very bad thing.
The sentence ..
>As soon as a gun comes into play
doesn't really get you anywhere.
The reality is...
(a) you are in a house
(b) you hear someone on the roof
(c) there is a good chance (20% ?) it is an armed criminal ..
OK, that's the set-up.
The question is *NOW*, based on these circumstances, "is it better that I
do or dont now have a gun".
Onbviously, it's not a winnable debate - just a difference in, um, ethical
stance. Either you're a pacifist (sp.?) or not.
>As someone else (I think Deb) said, if everyone ran out of the
>house with guns, there's a "real chance" (to use JP's phrase)
>that someone could get shot. If nobody had a gun, there's "no
>chance" that someone could get shot.
Same point again .. IMHO the flaw is in:
" >If nobody had a gun "
quite pointless because _criminals_ _have_ _guns_. (Or weapons, or intent
to harm.)
Anyways, I find this to be one of those unbelievably vague and
purely-intellectual-level arguments !
Sort of like two, um, castratos discussing whether or not they could
supress their sexual urges if they were whole.
IMHO I predict that if you, Greg, or most anyone, was confronted with
physical threat { .. although that rarely happens these days .. } your
response would be a desire to hurt (whether or not you have an appropriate
tool at hand).
IMHO if you take a walk around compton or you live in tribeca the issue
becomes one you don't argue about the subtle points of. Just discuss where
best to buy ammo! <;
Darren notes:
>{wrong:} I therefore need a gun to protect myself,
>because a gun is the best/most efficient/whatever way to protect myself.
I think 'gun' is just shorthand for, um, 'right to fight back violently' -
any method will do <;
J Michael New:
>Now if you had no gun, and the criminal did,
>would he be scared? Why would
>he be? He'll tell you to get the fuck back
>inside or to give him all your
>money. Then, fearing getting caught, he'll
>probably run away.
[Tragically] Michael, the "70s movie version" of criminals which you
present does not exist. They just look at you, aim, shoot you dead and go
about their business. They do not say "get the fuck back" and then,
perhaps, clock you on the head with the stub of the pistol to reneder you
unconscious ( - only for enough time for them to get clean away - ), or gag
and bind you. They just shoot, youre dead.
Deb:
>JP. If someone killed me, I wouldn't *want* you to kill them. One life
>ended is enough. Two lives ended accomplishes nothing. By killing the
>person who killed me, you don't bring *me* back, you just cause another
>network of people (those who knew and loved the person who killed me)
>a gret deal of pain and suffering. Eye for an eye is stupid. Stupid.
>Stupid.
(Answer 1) (Intellectual answer) On the contrary. Take a sort of
biological view. If someone is so SCREWED UP as to be a, um, pointless
killer, it's better if they don't reproduce. Both physically reproduce and
reproduce their culture, memes if you will. Kill em! Put them, their
parents, & children out of misery. "An eye for an eye" is as obvious and
probably necessary a biological drive as, um, men differentially wanting to
impregnate women with broad hips.
(Answer 2) (Actual living human being answer) You're nuts Deb. If
someone kills you, they're going down ..
>For posterity: if I am murdered, I request that the person who murdered
>me be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law *except* that I
>do not want him/her to suffer the death penalty. (there, sort of an
>online 'will' request :)
I see. So an immediate, hot-blooded, quite "natural" repsonse which would
be your brother or someone wasting the guy ... that's no good.
On the other hand, putting the guy in p r i s o n for god's sake, a fate
worse than any death, quite 'inhuman', hideaous and cruel beyond any
torture .. that's dandy. Great!
___________________________
jp may jpm@tweb.com
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my nickname: peekaboo