>>In Holland, Denmark and Sweden, a gay marriage is still not legal. However,
>>the possibility exists to sign a so called 'living together-contract'.
>Are you sure about this?
I am sure about Holland, not a 100% about Denmark and Sweden. Perhaps i
should point out that in Holland a church wedding is not considered to be a
legal wedding. A legal wedding is only possible in the city hall by a
special city-employee. If you are religious then you can also make
arrangements with your church. However, these arrangements do not have a
legal impact. I remember the first time a gay couple got 'married' in
church, the pictures were sent throughout the world. But it was not a legal
marriage.
> However, I am extremely interested in what people in Sweden or Holland
>think of gay marriage (if
>you'll allow me to continue to use that term), since they are the ones who
>are living with it as a legal option in their societies.
Ah, well...on behalf of all people living in Holland, i would like to state
the following :-)
I can only tell you what i think and only guess what i think other people
think. As you might know, Holland is almost always on the barricades
regarding social issues. To my knowledge, Holland is e.g. the first country
which has a union for prostitutes.
However shocking some of these barricade-elements are to some foreign
people, we Dutch are proud off it. Sometimes we even feel that, although a
small country we matter a lot (read: the most) in the world. Holland
sometimes is referred to as a 'guide country' meaning that Holland leads
the way towards a better future. It will come as no surprise to hear that
organizations like Amnesty International and Green Peace have their roots
lying in Holland.
A simple explanation for this attitude would be the trading element the
Dutch have always possessed. A good tradesman will not offend his
(potential) clientele. Instead he will offer as much room as possible for
different opinions. Whatever the client wants, he'll get it without
question asked.
Basically, the Dutch don't ask each other a lot of questions. I have
thought about this a lot. What exactly is the difference between being
tolerant and being just not interested? IMO, the Dutch are not really
interested in what other people do and thus they are tolerant. As long as
my neighbour does not bother me, then hell, i don't care what he does! For
sure, this not being interested gives a lot of room to my neighbour. The
expression "i accept you for who/what you are" therefore does not have much
impact in Holland. Perhaps a better phrase would be: "just be
whatever/whoever you want to be..see if i care"
Most people in Holland have become a bit blase towards all the "shocking"
things one might find in modern society. We've seen it all. I still
remember the surprised look on the face of a foreign friend of mine who
came to visit Amsterdam. At that time, a jeans label named "Love" was on a
lot of billboards across the city. On the billboard, two males were tongue
kissing each other underscribed by the slogan "make love, not war". My
friend could simply not believe such a billboard was allowed. "Don't people
oppose to this" he asked. "Well...eh...no" i responded, equally surprised
(!) "they just don't care".
I have this feeling that people in the US do care a lot more than people in
Holland. IMHO, they care way to much. I love watching American talk shows
like Jerry Springer. Every time i am most surprised about how interactive
the audience is. They seem to have an opinion about just everything. A
Dutch would not easily jump up in a crowd and say "Go get a divorce girl!"
Sure, Jerry Springer might not be your average American. However, he is
very popular in the States, so people agree to him and the principles
behind the show: rather conservative and no matter how understanding
towards his guests he usually closes the show with a personal note saying
(paraphrased) "don't try this at home" How popular would a show be in which
he would say "go ahead, experiment, be curious, just do it"?
Returning to your question "what do people in Holland think of gay
marriages?", the answer is simple: they don't think anything of it. The
basic Dutch filosofy towards your question is most likely: If two males
want to get married, then let them. It's hard for me, and for most Dutch i
suppose, to imagine that people would object to it (I know Jerry would :-).
Afer all, why should one object? It's this lack of understanding towards US
people and other people that fascinates me about them for they object and
have opinions about what other people are doing with their lives.
To conclude this monoloque, let me turn your question around: what should
people think about gay marriages?
>I'm also interested
>in what people in the U.S. think of it, since Hawaii may soon pass a law
>legalizing it, and several states are up in arms about this. <snip>
It's a beautiful speech if anyone wants me to post it to
>the list.
Please do, i am interested in the way people in your country think of this
issue.
>> I hope so too. If not, well, i would say do not depend your
>>happiness on people who do not accept you!
>I think that's a little simplistic to say "do not depend your happiness on
>people who do not accept you."
As mentioned in a previous email i never had the intention to say "don't
worry, be happy". In Holland it is simple to not depend your happiness on
people who do not accept you because they form a minority. As you indicate,
in your country the situation is reversed which makes it a lot more
difficult. It was my narrow minded, national orientated mind which has lead
me to the quoted statement. Sorry.
>
>
>At the end of the last century, this country went through a lot of
>polarization on issues. I think the same thing is happening at the end of our
>own century. The media is full of stories about polarization in the political
>process (extreme right vs. extreme left--a lot of the candidates make a
>statement by telling us they are "moderates"), race issues, gender issues,
>etc. I don't think that most people are really polarized on the issues, but
>the media seems to focus on this polarization. All we hear about is how
>conservative Buchanan is or how liberal some other guy is. I hope that most
>people have more common sense than this, but then, I've been wrong before.
A while ago i read a story that the religious right (note on the side: i
call them fundamentalists, comparable to those in some mid-east countries
like Iran) was almost stronger in the 20's/30's of this century than
nowadays. They seem however not really weak or anything nowadays. Don't
people in the US worry about this? Whenever i see Pat Buchanon on
television, i am not really scared by himself. It's his followers that
scares me the most. You see young people shouting like crazy "go Pat go". I
am told that a lot of students are participating in this sort of activities
(organizing meetings etcetera). Is this really true? Do students in the US
loose their minds as simply as that? Whatever has happened to the
observant, non-participating attitude of the scientists to be?
sorry for being out of sync with the rest of the list lately.
Riemer Brouwer
riebro@eh1.mey.nl