From - Wed Jan 14 14:55:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: from relay2.UU.NET by mrco.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA15723; Fri, 29 Jan 93 01:43:24 EST Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA00357; Fri, 29 Jan 93 01:37:20 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28854; Thu, 28 Jan 93 23:30:45 MST From: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (andy) Message-Id: <9301290630.AA28854@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: FutureCulture Digest #200 To: future-digest@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 23:30:43 MST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 43867 X-Lines: 1102 ______________________________________________________________________ |______________ / | | / | | u t u r e <___________ u l t u r e | _______________________________________________________________________| Issue #200 Thursday, January 28th 1993 Today's Topics: --------------- Re: [surfpunk-0036] CRYPT: Sci Am on Public Key Cryptosyste And I looked from pig to man and man to pig... Apology Gays in the future... Habitat "vr" Meme Synergy (yet *another* possible thread) Neural hacking PLEASE MOVE THE BIGOTRY SOMEWHERE ELSE! Re: Crack Wars Re: Gays in the future Re: Gays in the future... Re: Hawk & All: Re: PLEASE MOVE THE BIGOTRY SOMEWHERE ELSE! Re: Please, make me violently nauseous... Re: Sci Am on Public Key Cryptosystems Re: vr now Re: [surfpunk-0036] CRYPT: Sci Am on Public Key Cryptosystems Thanks, everybody that neato pedophile/gay/straight chart.... This list, can somebody send me some 411 Undeliverable Mail vr now __________________________________________________________________________ From: O'Hara Walter Subject: Re: Gays in the future... Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 14:39:00 PST I have to agree with cybyr, for similar reasons I won't get into. ______________________________ Date: 28 Jan 1993 14:18:44 -0400 (EDT) From: SDS1207@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu Subject: Re: Gays in the future Well if cyber wants to genmeralize his singular experience to the entire LGB community, let him/her be that stupid. But I'm not here to flame. For the rest of you rational folks: forget the phone: Clinton = 75300.3115@compuserve.com First pres. on the net. Post everywhere. Hassle his every move. Pertinant topics aside from military discrimination = Iraq, Haiti, Sundevil, keeping the net free, etc......... PS: the deal is no response from Big Bill through e-mail, snail-mail response if you include an address in the e-mail message. its not as if BC will actually *read* these things, but they *do* count them as messages in a FOR or AGAINST file on specific issues - also, #s of letters/telegrams/ e-mail messages on diff. issues often released to the press, recriculated, and thus influence public op[inion, thereby circling back through the pollsters to influence BCs moves. Not to imply that anything all that exciting can be expected from a PRESIDENT, but LGB rights matter. - Dan ______________________________ From: swisher@cs.utexas.edu (Janet M. Swisher) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 13:19:02 -0600 Subject: Habitat "vr" For more info on Habitat, see "The Lessons of Lucasfilm's Habitat" by Morningstar and Farmer, in _Cyberspace: First Steps_, edited by Mikael Benedikt (MIT Press 1991). Habitat is essentially a graphical MUD, which may seem old hat, but it was one of the first. Though I don't think it was ever ported beyond C64's, it was set up in such a way that the client machines could conceptually be anything, with platform-appropriate interfaces. Two users could be logged on, looking at the same "tree", but the one on the SGI sees a detailed 3-d fractally modelled tree with branches waving in the wind, while the one on the dumb terminal sees "There is a tree here". ______________________________ Date: Wed Jan 27 23:49:12 1993 From: PMDF Mail Server Subject: Undeliverable Mail This mail message is undeliverable. (Probably to or from system 'stanton') It was sent to you or by you. Sorry for the inconvenience. Sincerely, qed!uucp ############################################# ##### Data File: ############################ >From pride386!uunet!pages!nosc!nyx.cs.du.edu!ahawks Wed Jan 20 09:55:36 1993 remote from stanton Received: by stanton.UUCP (smail2.5) id AA05239; 20 Jan 93 09:55:36 PST (Wed) Received: by pride386.PP.COM (smail2.5) id AA07617; Wed, 20 Jan 93 08:53:21 PST Received: from uunet.uu.net (via LOCALHOST.UU.NET) by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA28378; Wed, 20 Jan 93 07:35:19 -0500 Received: from pages.UUCP by uunet.uu.net with UUCP/RMAIL (queueing-rmail) id 073428.26163; Wed, 20 Jan 1993 07:34:28 EST Received: by pages.com (NX5.67c/NX3.0M) id AA27128; Tue, 19 Jan 93 21:40:15 -0800 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by trout.nosc.mil (5.59/1.27) id AA18891; Tue, 19 Jan 93 21:00:54 PST Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA00824; Tue, 19 Jan 93 23:58:10 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01784; Tue, 19 Jan 93 21:59:40 MST From: uunet!pages!nyx.cs.du.edu!ahawks (max legroom) Message-Id: <9301200459.AA01784@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: Meme Synergy (yet *another* possible thread) To: future@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 21:59:39 MST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] I'm avoiding replying to the LSD thread today because the current daily digest is going to be *huge*, but there's one thing that I have to address... Sameer brought up the idea that a lot ogf Leri 'ers are showing up here on FC....Great! I encourage more to show up, since Leri's a great forum loaded with some exciting personalities.... However, I'm sure we've all noticed sometime/sompeplace/somehow in our net.experience that we run into the same names over and over and over.... For example, when I saw Sameer's name on a post to FC a couple days ago I thought to myself, "woah, did I resubscribe to Leri?!" cuz that's where I recognize him from - a definite net.presence.... That's one of the features of the Net, of course, it lets us fine-tune our conversations to any degree we choose to- we can read about what we want, skip what we don't want to see, ignore annoying messages, this idea of course is not possible to the same degree in RealLife, thus it seems to promote specialization, and not just specialization in one are or segment of the net, but people seem to pick and choose at l least a *few* corners of the net to inhabit and keep tabs on, and let loose their knowledge... However, does anyone get the feeling that some of these net.dark.corners are overlapping to the point of a synergy? I don't want to expand upon this until I hear if people agree or not, and until people say what net.dark.corners they feel are coming together in the light.... I'm not saying this is some sudden realization or spasmatic evolution, it just seems part of a slow continual process that the net has been engaging in for a long time now..... -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Date: Wed Jan 27 23:49:55 1993 From: PMDF Mail Server Subject: Undeliverable Mail This mail message is undeliverable. (Probably to or from system 'stanton') It was sent to you or by you. Sorry for the inconvenience. Sincerely, qed!uucp ############################################# ##### Data File: ############################ >From pride386!uunet!pages!nosc!nyx.cs.du.edu!ahawks Wed Jan 20 09:57:26 1993 remote from stanton Received: by stanton.UUCP (smail2.5) id AA05399; 20 Jan 93 09:57:26 PST (Wed) Received: by pride386.PP.COM (smail2.5) id AA07743; Wed, 20 Jan 93 08:54:14 PST Received: from uunet.uu.net (via LOCALHOST.UU.NET) by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA00921; Wed, 20 Jan 93 07:58:17 -0500 Received: from pages.UUCP by uunet.uu.net with UUCP/RMAIL (queueing-rmail) id 075757.171; Wed, 20 Jan 1993 07:57:57 EST Received: by pages.com (NX5.67c/NX3.0M) id AA27771; Tue, 19 Jan 93 22:51:07 -0800 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by trout.nosc.mil (5.59/1.27) id AA24472; Tue, 19 Jan 93 22:10:29 PST Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA13969; Wed, 20 Jan 93 01:07:37 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08169; Tue, 19 Jan 93 23:09:10 MST From: uunet!pages!nyx.cs.du.edu!ahawks (max legroom) Message-Id: <9301200609.AA08169@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: Re: Crack Wars To: future@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 23:09:04 MST In-Reply-To: <01GTQ1B8H7ES0017Z8@opie.bgsu.edu>; from "CKILE@opie.bgsu.edu" at Jan 20, 93 12:50 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] New fresh-scented *CKILE@opie.bgsu.edu* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | | I'm still drawn to sixties-ish utopian rhetorics about drugs, but... |but...I find them a bit off the point/experience as far as my own |experience is concerned. Ack...It's _impossible_ to theorize TRIPPING!!! |Oh...forget that I even got into this last paragraph. It's part of an |larger ongoing argument that I'm having with myself about Utopias and |cyberculture. Really. NEVER MIND!!! Aww, c'mon!!!! Release your schizophrenia onto the rest of us at Future-Culture... We live for it!!!! | I swear, I'm gonna log off & go back to my reading now | | Crystal Kile | Popular Culture/American Culture | Bowling Green State Univeristy, Ohio ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ My mom graduated from there, back in the mid-60's or thereabouts I think...I'll ask her for the year.... Anyway, she's a first-grade teacher now.... (she's, like, 52 or 53 years old now, so, you can do the math if you want, I'm too tired)..... So, are you a professor of pop/amer. culture, or is that your major/area of specialization? I've always been interested in studying pop culture from a true sociological perspective, and it's cool to see that attitude increasing in pop-ularity, with pop-culture pop-ping up (sorry, just can';t stop myself tonite) in so many colleges, practically even down to the high scool level....Particularly the flow of subcultures in post-WWII Amer. society - that's what turns me on...When I get to college next fall I plan on taking a few classes that cover that... Anyway, I just can't stop typing tonite....later.... -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ From: jesse@picasso.ocis.temple.edu (Jesse Davis) Subject: Thanks, everybody Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 14:45:01 EST Everybody who cooperated, _thanks_ for posting all those credit card numbers. I KNEW that disguising the digits as items of clothing would get it past the feds... We probably shouldn't have used black for the 1- prefix, though...I think the frequency with which it turned up might have been suspicious. Docs for 0 might not have been so good either... But all in all, it worked _great_! Thanks again. Off to shop and buy real clothes with all the numbers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Jesse Davis | | |jesse@picasso.ocis. | "Metaphor is my mathematics" | | temple.edu | --Free Agent .rez | | 215-545-3724 | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ DISCLAIMER FOR FBI: I'M JOKING! I SWEAR IT! ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 14:47:43 EST From: majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu (Murali) Subject: Gays in the future... Not a flame, but a request for further information re: :As to why (because I know that you will want to know) lets just say :that because of real bad experiences with this (GLBi's) crowd I am :firmly against any of their activity. (bfp) :I know that this is close minded but that is what child rape does to :an individual. Maybe someday I will feel dif, but not real soon. :I am also against hetero-child molestors too...... I'm not sure that I understand the connection between child molestation and any other activities of homo- bi- or hetero-sexuals. I understand that you (and most other people) would want to see molesters of any orientation strung up, but I don't see how you extrapolate that to the GLB crowd being second-class, without also concluding that all hets are equally second class, as a result of the huge numbers of molesters that occur in the het population. Perhaps if you elucidated a bit further, (and quickly as well), you could divert or dampen the inevitable flames that are surely forthcoming...and save us all the trouble of dealing with them... Murali majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu "I am forever in your debt!" New Edge Consulting Services | "Nonsense...how can a friend P.O. Box 156, Amherst, NY 14226 | be in debt?" Voice: (716) 834-1648 -From Russia With Love ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 14:05:32 CST From: UC482529@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu Subject: Re: vr now >ok all you must-have-vr-now-geeks check this: i met a guy up in sf (at >an extropian party) who (with a few others) wrote a cool vr system >called habitat. There's a really good writeup (by Chip Morningstar et. al.) of Habitat in the book _Cyberspace_, edt. by Michael Benedikt. It's a collect of papers from the first Conference on Cyberspace. Interesting details on the internals, some entertaining screen shots and anecdotes. The rest of the book is pretty good too, modulo the first 3 pieces which are full of psuedosignificant blather. ("Cyberspace as Rite Of Passage"-- takes silly pretentiousness to new heights...) Did the person whom you spoke to mention whether or not Habitat is still up and running either here in the US or in Japan? I had gotten the impression that it was no longer in service in either. -Anthony Garcia uc482529@mizzou1.missouri.edu ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 14:02:41 +0600 (CST) From: Patrick McKee Subject: Re: Gays in the future... On Thu, 28 Jan 1993, Murali wrote: > > Not a flame, but a request for further information re: > > :As to why (because I know that you will want to know) lets just say > :that because of real bad experiences with this (GLBi's) crowd I am > :firmly against any of their activity. (bfp) > :I know that this is close minded but that is what child rape does to > :an individual. Maybe someday I will feel dif, but not real soon. > :I am also against hetero-child molestors too...... > > I'm not sure that I understand the connection between child > molestation and any other activities of homo- bi- or hetero-sexuals. > I understand that you (and most other people) would want to see > molesters of any orientation strung up, but I don't see how you > extrapolate that to the GLB crowd being second-class, without also > concluding that all hets are equally second class, as a result of the > huge numbers of molesters that occur in the het population. I said (as my last line indicates) that I am also against het child molestor's for the same reason. I never said that het's are first class. That is an assumption on your part. But het's are in control, mostly ;) of government. So I am not being persecuted as being a het. Luck of the draw. > > Perhaps if you elucidated a bit further, (and quickly as > well), you could divert or dampen the inevitable flames that are > surely forthcoming...and save us all the trouble of dealing with > them... Fine. I will elucidate. I lived in Tampa, Florida. I lived in the section of town known as the Gay Community. I had several friends that lived there also. They had children. Child rape was RAMPANT. Several of my gay aquaintances told me and showed me on several occasions that the quest for youth was important in their culture. Active recruitment of area youths was practiced. I lived it. You deny it. Sorry. No amount of proof on my part will stop the people who may have been offended by MY honest opinion. If they want to flame me fine. I will not back down. As I just said I LIVED IT. And please try to remember that this is a het man's view. Opinion only. I do not make laws. > > Murali > Patrick (cybyr) DISCLAIMER: (revised 1/28/93) Opinions are like assholes, everbody has a right to one otherwise they are just full of shit. ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 14:14:55 CST From: UC482529@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Please, make me violently nauseous... >What's trivial about it? Example of a useful post: copy of John Markoff's "cellphone phreakers" article. Nice anecdotal flavor, interesting surface details about the nominally hidden capabilities of cellphones. Example of a useless post: "Gee, I'm wearning Doc Martins, black jeans, a black T-shirt, a black leather jacket, black sunglasses, and black hair dye. I've got a DB-25 plug superglued to my forehead. Do I look K00L OR WHAT?!?!" Comparison and contrast is left as an exercise for the student. -Anthony Garcia uc482529@mizzou1.missouri.edu ______________________________ Subject: vr now Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 12:35:17 PST From: Jay Prime Positive Anthony Garcia asks: >Did the person whom you spoke to mention whether or not Habitat is still >up and running either here in the US or in Japan? The impression I got was that habitat was still running (and with new and improved clients) and that the owners (toshiba??) were looking for a way to bring it out on the US market. I belive the guy (sure wish I could remmeber his name) said just this. The guy also mentioned the "oportunities" (i.e. dificult areas) in devloping a distributed vr. It looks to me that graphic muds are the place to develop these ideas. Thanks for the pointer to the write up. I will look for the book. j' ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 12:36:14 -0800 From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont) Subject: PLEASE MOVE THE BIGOTRY SOMEWHERE ELSE! ....... Thank you. ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 14:33:00 CST From: UC482529@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Gays in the future... >As to why (because I know that you will want to know) lets just say >that because of real bad experiences with this (GLBi's) crowd I am >firmly against any of their activity. (bfp) > >I know that this is close minded but that is what child rape does to >an individual. Maybe someday I will feel dif, but not real soon. Might I (a heterosexual) point out: Pedophilia is orthogonal to sexual orientation: Pedophile No Yes +--------+--------+ Straight | 1 | 2 | +--------+--------+ Gay | 3 | 4 | +--------+--------+ Judging from your comments, you were abused by someone from quadrant 4. There are many more abusers who fall into quadrant 2. Nonetheless, there are many fine people in quadrant 3. Perhaps you should get to know some of them? -Anthony -- Do not be intolerant of individuals who have done you no harm. ObFuture: Transhumans will have whatever sexual characteristics, sexual orientations, body forms (indeed, quantity of bodies) they want. ______________________________ From: "Ian S. Nelson" Subject: This list, can somebody send me some 411 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 14:18:05 MST Is this mailing list availible in digest form? I enjoy reading it, but I'm getting too many messages as it is right now. thanks -- Ian S. Nelson I speak for only myself. finger for a PGP public key. ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 15:27:06 +0600 (CST) From: Patrick McKee Subject: Apology Fine. I learned my lesson. I will not post opinions anymore. Sorry for the trouble. Point taken. Patrick ______________________________ From: sml@mfltd.co.uk (Shaun Lowry) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 11:23:39 GMT Subject: Re: [surfpunk-0036] CRYPT: Sci Am on Public Key Cryptosystems >From: surfpunk@osc.versant.com (gubhtug gb ribxr fpvrapr svpgvba engure guna fpvrapr) % echo 'gubhtug gb ribxr fpvrapr svpgvba engure guna fpvrapr' | \ tr '[A-Z][a-z]' '[N-Z][A-M][n-z][a-m]' thought to evoke science fiction rather than science Didn't take much of a cryptographer to spot that one :-) > The philosophies of PEM and PGP differ most visibly with respect to >key management, the crucial task of ensuring that the public keys that >encode messages actually belong to the intended recipient rather than a >malevolent third party. PEM relies on a rigid hierarchy of trusted >companies, universities and other institutions to certify public keys, >which are then stored on a "key server" accessible over the Internet. So, anyone intercepting mail to a certain person can, if the message is encrypted, request that person's key from the server, and decrypt it themselves? Great. You've convinced me to use it. NOT. >To send private mail, one asks the key server for the public key of the >addressee, which has been signed by the appropriate certification >authorities. PGP, in contrast, operates on what Zimmermann calls "a >web of trust": people who wish to correspond privately can exchange >keys directly or through trusted intermediaries. The intermediaries >sign the keys that they pass on, thus certifying their authenticity. Seriously, the only way to send secure mail with this sort of encryption is to exchange keys with the person you're corresponding with in a secure way, i.e. meet them in the flesh. [stands on soapbox] Sending encrypted mail isn't something we should have to do. It's not the Internet's "scene". The Internet, as I see it, is based purely on trust and co-operation, and that's a *BIG* win for me. I like a society where there aren't any police, and order is maintained by the populace. You could argue that we're being constantly watched/opressed by every sysadmin on the 'net, but how many of them have ever *interfered* with the way the 'net operates? Not many. Consider also that most sysadmins on the 'net are also net.citizens. [gets off and wanders back into the crowd] > Although PGP's purchase price is right -- it is freely available over >the Internet and on electronic bulletin boards throughout the world -- >it does carry two liabilities that could frighten away potential >users. First, U.S. law defines cryptographic hardware and software as >"munitions." So anyone who is caught making a copy of the program could >run afoul of export-control laws. Miller calls this situation >"absurd," citing the availability of high-quality cryptographic >software on the streets of Moscow. Absolutely fucking wonderful. I believe also that classing them as "munitions" gives the govt powers to seize said software, which in all likelihood means the machines on which the software runs. You want the CIA wandering through your filestore anytime they like? This sounds like a perfect excuse. > Worse yet, RSA Data Security in Redwood City, Calif., holds rights to >a U.S. patent on the public-key encryption algorithm, and D. James >Bidzos, the company's president, asserts that anyone using or >distributing PGP could be sued for infringement. The company has >licensed public-key software to corporations and sells its own >encrypted-mail package (the algorithm was developed with federal >support, and so the government has a royalty-free license). When >Bidzos's attorneys warned Zimmermann that he faced a suit for >developing PGP, he gave up further work on the program. This just gets better and better. > Instead PGP's ongoing improvements are in the hands of an >international team of software developers who take advice from >Zimmermann by e-mail. The U.S. is the only nation that permits the >patenting of mathematical algorithms, and so programmers in the >Netherlands or New Zealand apparently have little to fear. > > U.S. residents who import the program could still face legal action, >although repeated warnings broadcast in cryptography discussion groups >on computer networks have yet to be superseded by legal filings. >Meanwhile, Gilmore says, the only substantive effect of the patent >threat is that development and use of cryptographic tools have been >driven out of the U.S. into less restrictive countries This is just too depressing for words. When will these people lighten up?!? Shaun. -- /s(Shaun Lowry)def/g{.7 setgray}def/c{10 0 -1 arc fill}def 300 600 100 0 360 arc stroke 300 600 50 180 0 arc stroke g 300 600 c stroke 1 2 scale 270 325 c stroke 330 325 c stroke grestore 125 450 moveto/Helvetica findfont 60 scalefont setfont gsave 0.03 .09 rmoveto g [ 1 0 2 -1 0 0 ] concat s show grestore s show showpage ______________________________ Date: 28 Jan 1993 16:14:27 -0600 (CST) From: Scotto >I never could figure out why everyone wears so many clothes in a >controlled environment (your house). Sharp corners. ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 14:38:38 PST From: Don Eliason Subject: Re: Sci Am on Public Key Cryptosystems > >From: surfpunk@osc.versant.com (gubhtug gb ribxr fpvrapr svpgvba engure guna fpvrapr) > > % echo 'gubhtug gb ribxr fpvrapr svpgvba engure guna fpvrapr' | \ > tr '[A-Z][a-z]' '[N-Z][A-M][n-z][a-m]' > thought to evoke science fiction rather than science > > Didn't take much of a cryptographer to spot that one :-) > Doesn't work for me. eliason@merlin.llnl.gov ______________________________ From: ahawks (obi-wan kenobi) Subject: Re: PLEASE MOVE THE BIGOTRY SOMEWHERE ELSE! Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 15:54:26 MST ditto. -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 18:18:59 EST From: majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu (Murali) Subject: Apology :Fine. I learned my lesson. I will not post opinions anymore. :Sorry for the trouble. Point taken. Sorry, but it's not that opinions aren't appreciated here...if everyone kept their controversial ideas to themselves, this would be an awfully boring place... It's just that when you post your opinions, be prepared to back them up with a legitimate defense if (and usually _when_) someone criticizes them. Your opinion on *sexuals is fine - for _you_. I don't expect you to feel the same way as I do, nor should you expect me to feel as you do. It's just that you posted an opinion (that you acknowledged would be flame-bait of the most tempting kind...), without a solid basis for it. Now, I'm definitely _not_ saying that your experience isn't valid - it most certainly is. It's just that that sort of thing can't really be used as a guideline for dealing with _all_ *sexuals. (Perhaps if you took another look at it, you'd see a different vector to the child molestation thing - maybe it was the area that you were in, or the subculture around that area, and not the orientation of the people that casued it. I don't know - I don't have enough info about the whole situation to tell. You may.) Remember - you must temper your own experience with that of others...it's a tough thing to admit, but you, yourself, and your experiences are a very, very _small_ part of the reality of this world. If you'll listen to what others say, that there _are_ a lot of decent gay/bi/whatever people out there, you might find that that good that they've seen outweighs the bad that you have. End of rant. Murali (I've got to get myself a motorcycle now...my car's about to fall apart, for good this time, and all the cars I've ever driven have been real pieces of crap...I don't see why _anyone_ drives the things...) majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu "I am forever in your debt!" New Edge Consulting Services | "Nonsense...how can a friend P.O. Box 156, Amherst, NY 14226 | be in debt?" Voice: (716) 834-1648 -From Russia With Love ______________________________ Date: 28 Jan 1993 18:37:23 -0500 From: "I love children--they taste just like chicken." Subject: that neato pedophile/gay/straight chart.... ... Pedophile ... No Yes ... +--------+--------+ ...Straight | 1 | 2 | ... +--------+--------+ ...Gay | 3 | 4 | ... +--------+--------+ This is very nice....but I think that it misses the point as much as people who generalize. The point? See new improved chart: Pedophile No Yes +--------+--------+ People | 1 | 2 | +--------+--------+ Now, why is this relevent to the future-culture list. Because if there is going to be any kind of decent future, it will need to be judgmental based on an action rather than class. Judge someone's ACTIONS if you must judge--nothing new here. Besides, I think people are not homosexual or heterosexual--just sexual. And as people began to raise children in an environment free of class bias I think this quality would begin to shine through. (Yech--sounds terribly PC and New Age and all that...) I would type some more garbage here...but I figure I dont want to try to cover all bases since someone is going to find a chink somewhere anyway... randy ikpr500@indyvax.iupui.edu ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 18:37:36 -0500 From: Sean Michael Carton Subject: Neural hacking Does anyone know of any work/sources/rumors of work/ideas/lists/etc. about pluggin in to yr brain? In particular, electrical stimulation, homegrown surgery, lights, and the like...I'm curious. Sean ______________________________ From: "John Coryell." Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 12:11:50 CST Subject: Re: [surfpunk-0036] CRYPT: Sci Am on Public Key Cryptosystems >Seriously, the only way to send secure mail with this sort of >encryption is to exchange keys with the person you're corresponding >with in a secure way, i.e. meet them in the flesh. > >[stands on soapbox] >Sending encrypted mail isn't something we should have to do. It's not the >Internet's "scene". The Internet, as I see it, is based purely on trust and >co-operation, and that's a *BIG* win for me. I like a society where there >aren't any police, and order is maintained by the populace. You could argue >that we're being constantly watched/opressed by every sysadmin on the 'net, >but how many of them have ever *interfered* with the way the 'net operates? >Not many. Consider also that most sysadmins on the 'net are also >net.citizens. >[gets off and wanders back into the crowd] > I agree in principle with just about everything, but having encryption devices are useful on some occasions when engaging in activity that, though not necessarily illegal, could very definitely be used against you, particularly for blackmail. No, I've never had problems with the sysadmins (not in terms of email, but that's another story); they're not the ones I'm worrying about. Yes, I'm paranoid. I like to think it's worked to my advantage thus far. Caveat: I'm also so paranoid that the only way I'd provide my key is face to face, person to person, and I'm also going to try to have a different key for each separate individual's account (not just person) that I would send encryption to. But it would be delightful to keep things as much on the up and up; the rest of the deleted message is a tribute to why that may not be possible, sadly. John Coryell. ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 16:34:20 PDT From: Subject: Re: [surfpunk-0036] CRYPT: Sci Am on Public Key Cryptosyste > > The philosophies of PEM and PGP differ most visibly with respect to > >key management, the crucial task of ensuring that the public keys that > >encode messages actually belong to the intended recipient rather than a > >malevolent third party. PEM relies on a rigid hierarchy of trusted > >companies, universities and other institutions to certify public keys, > >which are then stored on a "key server" accessible over the Internet. > > So, anyone intercepting mail to a certain person can, if the message is > encrypted, request that person's key from the server, and decrypt it > themselves? Great. You've convinced me to use it. NOT. No, getting somebody's public key from the server wouldn't allow you to decrypt messages sent to them. You need the private key to do that. The actual danger referred to is that I could make you think MY public key was the key of, say, Pres. Clinton. You'd write a message to Clinton using my key, and I'd intercept it and decrypt it (since I know my own corresponding private key). When the message arrived at the White House, Clinton wouldn't be able to decrypt it, but by then the damage would presumably be done. ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 12:27:51 PST From: tnelson@bellahs.com (Tom Nelson RD) Subject: Re: Gays in the future... > > As to why (because I know that you will want to know) lets just say > that because of real bad experiences with this (GLBi's) crowd I am > firmly against any of their activity. (bfp) > > I know that this is close minded but that is what child rape does to > an individual. Maybe someday I will feel dif, but not real soon. > I should know better than to get into this argument, I've been in it enough times that people are fanatically stuborn on this topic... no rational, just stuborn. But here I go anyway... ----------------------- In Federalist Paper No. 51 Founding Father James Madison says: "It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard against the oppresion of its rulers, but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other part. Different interests necessarily exist in different classes of citizens. If a majority be united by a common interest the rights of the minority will be insecure. There are but two methods of providing against this EVIL....." - from The Federalist Papers. Hamilton, Madison and Jay Sometimes people in this country really scare me. Especially when I hear them talking about who should and should not have what rights and for what reasons. And then they have the audacity to put my rights up for vote by the majority, thats like having the canibals and the missionary vote for what to have for dinner. At times I think maybe we Americans should get exactly what we are asking for, maybe then we would shut up... of course we wouldn't have the right to speak by then either. Creating castes of citizens is antithetical to everything that this country claims to be about. Schisms already exist in the social fabric of this country, and creating official second class citizens would only make it worse. Most of these rips seem to be based around one group not being willing to tolerate another. They are fed by fear, misunderstanding and intolerance. There are people out there who see a chance for power in this climate, The religious right, The OCA, Helms, Operation Rescue and a lot of others. The wider these rips grow the stronger these people get. Another point: If some group is made into second class citizens what reason do they have to do anything to support the system that is keeping them down? In fact, what reason do they have to not try every avenue at their disposal not to smash the system that is oppressing them? C, you are condemning an entire group of people for something that (I assume) one individual did to you. There are enough of those individuals for it to be a problem, both gay and straight, but there are already laws to deal with that. What is needed is prosecution of people guilty of crimes, not punishment of a segment of the population. Your reaction is understandable, but not rational. Sit down and follow the logic behind your statement to its end, and then make it again. "All animals are equal, some are just more equal than others" - George Orwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Thomas Nelson tnelson@bellahs.com ---------------------------------------------------+ tdark@wet.com Never gave a damn about the meter man, Till I was the man That had to read the meter... man. - Sonic Youth ______________________________ From: sdw@meaddata.com (Stephen Williams) Subject: Re: Gays in the future... Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 14:27:28 -0500 (EST) > > I realize that this is going to cause me a lot of flames, but here goes. > > For my reasons and MY reasons only, I say vote NO. > > As to why (because I know that you will want to know) lets just say > that because of real bad experiences with this (GLBi's) crowd I am > firmly against any of their activity. (bfp) > > I know that this is close minded but that is what child rape does to > an individual. Maybe someday I will feel dif, but not real soon. You should know that most 'child rape', male or female, is committed by otherwise hetero males. 90%+ I think. Pedophilia is considered a disorder and is probably not positively correlated to sexual orientation. I would have to vote that they are not a problem. If you can't deal with it, don't associate with them, but discrimination isn't tolerated by me. > > cybyr > > disclaimer; > > I am also against hetero-child molestors too...... > > p.s. further discussions should be sent to me and me only, if you want to > flame to future fine - I will not respond. sdw -- Stephen D. Williams Local Internet Gateway Co.; SDW Systems 513 496-5223APager LIG dev./sales Internet: sdw@world.std.com CIS 76244.210@compuserve.com OO R&D Source Dist. By Horse: 10028 Village Tree Ct., Miamisburg, OH 45342 GNU Support ICBM: 39 34N 85 15W I love it when a plan comes together ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 19:08:59 -0800 From: Brian Willoughby Subject: Re: Sci Am on Public Key Cryptosystems | > >From: surfpunk@osc.versant.com (gubhtug gb ribxr fpvrapr svpgvba engure guna fpvrapr) | > | > % echo 'gubhtug gb ribxr fpvrapr svpgvba engure guna fpvrapr' | \ | > tr '[A-Z][a-z]' '[N-Z][A-M][n-z][a-m]' | > thought to evoke science fiction rather than science | > | > Didn't take much of a cryptographer to spot that one :-) | | Doesn't work for me. On my system, BSD 4.3 Unix, I was able to modify the command line to work after reading the man page for tr. Try: % echo 'gubhtug gb ribxr fpvrapr svpgvba engure guna fpvrapr' | \ tr 'A-Za-z' 'N-ZA-Mn-za-m' YMMV Brian Willoughby Software Design Engineer, BSEE NCSU BrianW@SoundS.WA.com Sound Consulting: Software Design and Development NeXTmail welcome ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 22:58 EST From: Matt Willis Subject: And I looked from pig to man and man to pig... Well, at the risk of exposing my neurosis, I always try to find the dead median in clothing, music, lifestyle, attitude, etc. My personal philosophy is that I only have one shot at life (sad fact, I know) and I don't want to live it too fast or too slow... Dead middle. I always try to blend in... most of the time, I'd rather observe than be observed, so I dress not to stand out... Not out of a fear of not fitting in, but a fear of being noticed. I was born a blank slate, that's the way I'll live, and that's the way I'll die... that is, until life forces me to change, if it does not, then I believe I'm in the right (have committment, which is Piaget's fourth and final stage in Intellectual Development). "but what is he actually wearing?" Just look at the person you wouldn't have noticed otherwise and say hello. Peace. +-------Matt-Willis--------------------------------+ | Matt Willis ASTMWILL@STETSON.BITNET | elsewhere: | Matt Willis Head of the Underground | mwill@mindvox.phantom.com | Matt Willis Robotech PBM List | +-------Matt-Willis--------------------------------+ "Absolutely alone in awareness of the mechanism." -Agrippa by WG ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 20:35:27 -0800 (PST) From: Al Billings Subject: Re: Hawk & All: On Wed, 27 Jan 1993 verge@cyberden.sf.ca.us wrote: > Good world: complex and compelling (Xolotl's illegal alien cleaning > lady is named Mary Jane)--frightening and attractive (Aztech fundi's make > blood/heart sacrifics and then implant artificial hearts)--when will > someone write a paper on why religion/cyberspace/cyberpunk always crawl > in bed together (voodoo and now Aztech)? Because there are religions/philosophies that mesh well with a post-Christian syncretic world. When everything is mixed together, you may get a mash but a number of these religions (like Santeria and Voodoo) are already a mixed mash. It fits right in. > Anyways, recommended, pick up and read _High Aztech_, by Ernest > Hogan. > It's just a little money and some blood It was one of my favorite books in the last year. I keep it on my shelf with _Schismatrix_ and _Vacumn_Flowers_ among others. ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 20:41:08 -0800 (PST) From: Al Billings Subject: Re: Gays in the future... On Thu, 28 Jan 1993, cybyr wrote: > As to why (because I know that you will want to know) lets just say > that because of real bad experiences with this (GLBi's) crowd I am > firmly against any of their activity. (bfp) > > I know that this is close minded but that is what child rape does to > an individual. Maybe someday I will feel dif, but not real soon. Gee, let's blame everyone for individuals. I say we go kill all Persian people because of the way Iran treated American citizens 13 years ago while we are at it. ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 20:42:23 -0800 (PST) From: Al Billings Subject: Re: Gays in the future... On Thu, 28 Jan 1993, cybyr wrote: > > Oh yea, in regards to my last post, that NO should have been a YES, they > should be treated like second class citizens. And you shouldn't be treated like anything. ______________________________ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 20:44:59 -0800 (PST) From: Al Billings Subject: Re: Gays in the future... On Thu, 28 Jan 1993, O'Hara Walter wrote: > I have to agree with cybyr, for similar reasons I won't get into. Another reject. _________________________________________________________________________ | | | That's all for today! | | To send a message to the list: future@nyx.cs.du.edu | | To subscribe/unsubscribe/change format: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | All other requests: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | List Maintainer is: (andy [aka hawkeye]) ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu | |_________________________________________________________________________| | | | The opinions expressed in FutureCulture are those of the individual | | author only. | |_________________________________________________________________________|