From - Wed Jan 14 11:43:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mrco.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA04368; Wed, 20 Jan 93 13:52:23 EST Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA08318; Wed, 20 Jan 93 13:42:42 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01710; Wed, 20 Jan 93 11:30:35 MST From: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (andy) Message-Id: <9301201830.AA01710@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: FutureCulture Digest #185 To: future-digest@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 11:30:33 MST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Status: R ______________________________________________________________________ |______________ / | | / | | u t u r e <___________ u l t u r e | _______________________________________________________________________| Issue #185 Wednesday, January 20th 1993 Today's Topics: --------------- list hopping Hush-Hush INTERZINE #1 - A Talk with Jagwire X Kroupa major deluded revelation has just happened Modding digest Re: Kroupa Re: Meme Synergy (yet *another* possible thread) Re: memetic resonance Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 - turnkey internet gateway Re: wired mindvox and well (Big News, Bud) yes list hopping is most interesting.... __________________________________________________________________________ From: swisher@cs.utexas.edu (Janet M. Swisher) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 00:56:58 -0600 Subject: Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 Speaking of trying to explain the net to the uninitiated, did anyone see Dilbert in last Sunday's funnies? It seems cartoonist Scott Adams is on the net. -- Don't take life so serious ... it ain't *no how* permanent. -- Porkypine. ______________________________ Date: 20 Jan 1993 01:14:48 -0600 (CST) From: "free agent .rez" Subject: Re: memetic resonance ahawks: >Does it ever reach any sort of monism? (that's not the best word, but >Roget doesn't live here anymore). HAH! "Roget." PeSHAW! my Goal In Life is to spin roget in his grave like a TOP by conning EVERYONE into thinking they have the Roget Force at their beck and call... that's what memetic grafting's all ABOUT!! :) (whew, either my britches just shrunk, or... ;) ) >Ie, new attractors created out of emerging attractors which create new >attractors, etc.... well, now, actually... as you say it... i've thunk on that before. because consider. IF memetic attractors are all they're cracked up to be, then they can EASILY be modelled as singularities to black holes. eventually, they SHOULD start to suck each other up... and if they DON't, then the task becomes to say WHY. this applies to genetics (ALL previous things and models privide blueprints for current changes, Rez's 1st Rule of Applied Memetics.) ... IF this whole evolution schtick the planet's stuck on DOESN't lead to One Organism, then it behooves us to ask WHY (not NECESSARILY to answer it... because REMEMBER: the program being run by the Earth is supposed to come up with the QUESTION to the Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything. NOT the Answer, which we already gnow is 42. ;) ) ok, i'm buggin' out. i'm gonna type up that cross-post about the meme. in FACT, i'm gonna post it to 1: Future-tech (1-2 posts a day), FutureCulture (10 or so posts a day... sort of... isn't it, guys?) and leri (50-100 posts a day.) .rez ______________________________ From: ahawks (max legroom) Subject: Modding digest Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 0:26:30 MST Hi...I'm using the plain ole Hewlett-Packard digest program (with mods) for the digest version of the list, and I was wondering if there was anyone out there who would know how to sort the digest *messages* alphabetically within the digest, and not just in the chronological order they usualyl apeear in.... In creating the actual body of the digest, the program uses awk to set things up, and I think that wihin that awk script is where you'd have to mess around, but I know nothing about awk (I've never messed with that part of the file other then to change message seperators from dashes to underline characters).... Anyway, if anyone knows how to do this, or knows of a list using the same digest program I do that has topics alphabetized, please let me know.... -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Subject: Re: Meme Synergy (yet *another* possible thread) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 2:33:33 EST From: Mitchell Porter > I'm avoiding replying to the LSD thread today because the current > daily digest is going to be *huge*, but there's one thing that I have > to address... > > Sameer brought up the idea that a lot ogf Leri 'ers are showing up > here on FC....Great! I encourage more to show up, since Leri's a > great forum loaded with some exciting personalities.... (Actually, it's all part of Leri-L's plot to take over the world. We're starting with Future Culture.) > However, I'm sure we've all noticed sometime/sompeplace/somehow in our > net.experience that we run into the same names over and over and > over.... > > For example, when I saw Sameer's name on a post to FC a couple days > ago I thought to myself, "woah, did I resubscribe to Leri?!" cuz > that's where I recognize him from - a definite net.presence.... > > That's one of the features of the Net, of course, it lets us fine-tune > our conversations to any degree we choose to- we can read about what > we want, skip what we don't want to see, ignore annoying messages, > this idea of course is not possible to the same degree in RealLife, > thus it seems to promote specialization, and not just specialization > in one are or segment of the net, but people seem to pick and choose > at l least a *few* corners of the net to inhabit and keep tabs on, and > let loose their knowledge... > > However, does anyone get the feeling that some of these > net.dark.corners are overlapping to the point of a synergy? I don't > want to expand upon this until I hear if people agree or not, and > until people say what net.dark.corners they feel are coming together > in the light.... I'm not saying this is some sudden realization or > spasmatic evolution, it just seems part of a slow continual process > that the net has been engaging in for a long time now..... Well, this was (sort of) a topic on Leri a while ago. ("a while", in this context, generally means a few days) There was the idea of "mapping the Net" - prototypical examples, at different levels, were the books by LaQuey and Krol, and online guides like the FC FAQ and High Weirdness - and we discussed also a notion of Rez's that a "map" of the Net might became a "virtual place" in itse;lf, in the sense that a mailing list is a place.. ie, at one time I would guess that there were just newsgroups on different topics - at the very beginning of Usenet. Then people began to conceive of Usenet itself, and of the hierarchies within it, as "places" (eg "alt net") each with a distinct quality. (This is place in a quite different sense from, say a bbs or a mud, because those are still physically situated in one machine, although users may be at terminals around the world; but Usenet is truly "distributed".) Now it seems to me that something similar is happening with mailing lists in general, and with a few mailing lists in particular - specifically, those mailing lists which discuss the Net itself and reflect on their own nature. (I made a follow up to Pacoid's message long ago about the net coming to life, don't know if anyone noticed it in the flux of things..) My candidates for self-conscious lists were Leri-L, Future Culture, and Extropians... Basically, as to whether the net.dark.corners are overlapping to a point of synergy, I would say yes I think so. From their beginning they have interacted to some degree, but now we the users are becoming conscious of that interaction, which means it will enter a new stage.. Hell, maybe I should just post my scheme for how the net can take over the world to FC, which I sent in to Leri a while ago, but it's 500 lines long & I don't want to unnecessarily stretch the digest.. > -- > > ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation > ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu > ______________________________ From: ahawks (max legroom) Subject: Re: wired mindvox and well (Big News, Bud) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 0:49:59 MST New fresh-scented *Paul Davilon* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | |Speaking of the real thing, what is happening with MindVox? I heard that |Kroupa |blew some Wired deadline because he trashed his apartment and put his fist |through a window? I talked to a friend of mine in NY who said Kroupa, his |fiance, Fancher and some other guy from LOD who wouldn't say his name were in |the emergency room yesterday. What was this all about and is everyone ok now? Before we get into people's deep personal lives, I think it'd be wise to confirm things like this before posting them, and even then make sure the audience is limited to people who are close to the party being talked about, e.g. friends....I've had this happen to me on BBSes when I was in the psych hospital, and people I didn't want to know, knew.... Anyway, I hope he's ok...hope he can still write/type...shit... |Wired: Who are they????? I read on MindVox that they have billboards and ads |all |over buses, subways, buildings and it looks as if every guy who used to write |for Mondo is going to be writing for them also, or intead of Mondo. I know |Sterling, Gibson, Markoff (NY Times and Cyberpunk), Kroupa, Rucker and even |R.U. | Sirius are there. Is Mondo over? Well, Wired of course is that new magazine coming out January 26th that is a journal geared towards te "digital generation", basically techno-culture, but seemingly with a more informational slant as opposed to Mondo's aesthetic focus.... People've been bitching for some time now that Mondo should be less glossy, so, well, here's a chance for it...As our culture continues to head into this direction there'll be other similar magz, I suspect... It'll be more widespread and for a more general audience, apparently, than Mondo and the report that it's "all over NY" confirms this, although I'd like to hear some first-hand info regarding Wired's advertising... I'd also like to hear a confirmation regarding the prominent people working at Wired...It is certainly not too difficult to believe Markoff is over there, and Bruce Sterling, of course, is on the cover of the first issue, but I have yet to hear what you mentioned about Rucker/Sirius/Kroupa etc.... I can't believe RU Sirius is over there...Mondo VAnilli working for what's touted as the New York Times of techno-culture - that just doesan't make sense to me.... And I thought Kroupa was just hired at Mondo.... There's people on this list who already have copies, and who were at the party, so we should probably ask to hear more from them..... PS: On the CNN report you could clearly see Gerard Van Der Luen (sp?)'s name in one of the articles in Wired....Is he still with the EFF? He was the first one to get the FC FAQ archived at a ftp site (ftp.eff.org), BTW..... PPS: Anne Balsamo was also featured on the CNN report....I don't know if she still does, but she used to read this list, and awhile back sent me that great bibliography of articles and books relating to cyebrculture.... I'll type up a transcript tonite of that report, since I don't think it's airing anymore, and I'll have it up here for tomorrow - and I'll slow-mo on the magazine shots and get all that I see there, too.... -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Subject: INTERZINE #1 - A Talk with Jagwire X Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 1:13:03 EST From: Mitchell Porter INTERZINE #1 --- JAGWIRE X (jagwire@wixer.cactus.org) Interzine is an irregular e-zine devoted to "interviews in cyberspace". It may be copied and distributed freely. This is a chat via IRC with Jagwire X, who recently created the AUtopia mailing list (send subscription requests to autopia-request@wixer.cactus.org) to discuss the idea of an autonomous "New Edge" colony on an ocean-going vessel. He can also be reached at the CyberSpace Institute BBS @ +1.512.469.0447. /who #AUtopia Channel Nickname S User@Host (Name) #AUtopia Velax H daemon@BRADENVILLE.ANDREW.CMU.EDU (bblk09.edn.gu.edu.au) #AUtopia Jagwire X G@ anonymous@mickey.cc.utexas.edu (anonymous) Velax > Jagwire? this is mitch Jagwire X > Hey. Velax > I'm just sending you mail but I guess I can abort that Velax > Where are you physically? Jagwire X > Austin, Texas, USA Jagwire X > And you? Velax > A computer lab, Griffith University, MT Gravatt campus, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia Jagwire X > What time is it? 6.00am or so? Velax > about 10 or 11 am here, I think.. Velax > So you're in someone's apartment.. your own?.. on a terminal over a modem, linked to a unix system.. Jagwire X > My apartment. Connect to the University of Texas via. my modem. Velax > Right.. I am always curious about the nature of a person's access to the net, since I suspect that different people "see" it in very different ways Jagwire X > Are we interviewing, yet? Velax > :) good question Velax > I've got "capture" running Velax > So I guess this is "raw material" at the very least Jagwire X > Cool... well I'm ready whenever you are. Yeah. I interviewed Andy Hawks this way (more or less). Velax > The first thing I always wanted to ask you, was: what *is* a jagwire? Jagwire X > Well, it cam about this way: I was driving a rental car while tripping on acid and I had been reading a bunch of c-punk lit at the time and I saw a huge billboard for a jaguar (the car). And I had been thinking about aliases at the time, and I had been thinking about aliases at the time, and I have always had an affinity for cats. So I sort of combined, jaguar/hardwired into a single polychromatic word. Velax > aha.. Velax > I had thought maybe a "jagwire" was some sort of "phreaker's phriend", like a "plumber's helper".. some sort of wire you stick in a machine to get it to do something Jagwire X > Hey there's an idea. Maybe I'll invent something like that. Velax > okay, so that's the jagwire part.. what about the "X"? is that a Malcolm X reference? or something more generic? Jagwire X > Oh, oh yeah... also jag . The X is sort of an exclamation. Say, to make it more severe. Velax > hmm.. I thought it was meant to connote anonymity, like you had to keep an alias in order to hide yourself from the forces of law 'n order..I was just curious because both you and Blade X have that extra 'x' on the end I thought it might be a .. not a common thing, not a fashionable thing, but still a symbol understood by a certain group of people, anyhow, aliases aren't tremendously important. Jagwire X > Yeah, Blade X got it from me and Menken X (who was cosysop on my BBS for a long time). To me and Menken X it is symbol, of what? Probably cynicism and craziness. Velax > heh Velax > Your bbs - that was where you interviewed Andy Hawks? Jagwire X > Right, yeah. He graciously called it long distance. Velax > Gee, that must have been expensive Jagwire X > Probably around $15 American. Velax > So you run a bbs, and you're also creator of the whole AUtopia enterprise, which I plan to get to in a moment; do you have any other "enterprises"? Jagwire X > Um... well, I am going to try once again to publish my 'zine (SunDog). My girlfriend just bought a photocopier so... it will be easier. Other than that I would say just general wreaking havoc on cyberspace... blah blah blah. Velax > SunDog, yeah.. I had that word written down somewhere, as something to ask about.. what would distinguish your zine from the other underground / new edge zines that are already out there? would it have a net incarnation as well as a hard copy one, the way scream baby is the net form of screamin' me-me? Jagwire X > Yeah, it would be published both hardcopy and on the net. And it will be small, more like rantings from the bowels of cyberspace. Scream Baby is the net form of Scream N *me*mes which is also electronic but quarterly (I think, or at least it was) Velax > "rantings from the bowels of cyberspace".. *grin* Jagwire X > SunDog will probably be written by Menken X and I only. Velax > Is there a particular view or philosophy you would try to promote? Jagwire X > Hmm... yeah, I guess there is. I am trying to promote more substance to the form that is developing. Seems to me that the whole New Edge movement lacks any real direction. That's what the whole AUtopia thing is about, really. Velax > aha, okay Velax > Well then, what is *your* philosophy? what do you think it's all about? you said in the Andy Hawks interview you had your life turned upside down by Wilson and Leary at age 14, or something like that.. Jagwire X > Yeah, Wilson and Leary pretty much mangled my soft and mushy grey matter. Velax > heh Velax > AUtopia certainly sounds like a goal in which just about the whole 'new edge' could participate Jagwire X > As for AUtopia I certainly hope so. I haven't really done much with it since Thanksgiving, but I now am getting some free time. Velax > Where did the idea of an offshore new-edge colony come from? Hagbard Celine? "Islands in the Net"? Jagwire X > Well, actually. No. It may have lodged itself in there sometime on the past. What really brought it on was a discussion, similar to this, about the New Edge. Velax > I guess you just have to look at the world around you and ask, "where can you *go*, physically, and be free?" and all the land is taken up by the nation-states, so that leaves space, or the sea.. Jagwire X > Right, exactly. Where can I go to be free to pursue a life without being policed by immature children playing with guns. Velax > And you were saying..? that there was no direction, or no common goal? [in that discussion, that is] Jagwire X > In that discussion. Yeah, there seems to be a lack of 'hard' ideas to work toward, or even 'soft' ideas for that matter. Velax > Okay, so assuming that at some point in the future theres no kids with guns around to bother the would-be new-edge explorers.. what sort of directions are you interested in? in the last AUtopia draft I saw you had everything from nanotech to nootropics as topics of research Jagwire X > Well, yeah, I am interested in technology and how it can be used to improve the human condition. I am a big fan of Buckminster Fuller. I agree with him that all life is technology, and with the possibilities of nanotech and geneering it will be possible..to actually control the technology of life. I just want to live long enough for this to be able to happen. Wilson and Leary convinced me (at 14) that I wanted to live forever (more or less, or at least until I get bored). Velax > Have you ever read fm2030 [fm esfandiary?] are you on the extropians list? Jagwire X > I haven't read that. I am on the Extropian essay list. Velax > But not the extropian general discussion list. Very high traffic, there. Velax > esfandiary is another "transhumanist" philosopher Velax > So.. ideally, AUtopia could be a spawning ground for the technologies and ways of life in the fuller-wilson-leary sort of future, where the limits on the human condition are those of imagination rather than biology? Jagwire X > Yeah, exactly. A mecca for creation. A veritable cauldron of technological fertility. Velax > Well, I hope it happens. So far there's a mailing list and an irc channel.. Jagwire X > Yeah, me too. The mailing list is somewhat slow these days, but that will change soon, I hope. Velax > How do things look to you as far as the logistics of actually acquiring an old destroyer, or something like that, & fitting it out with all the communications tech, etc, that you're after? Jagwire X > Well, right now they look bleak. I am certain that will change, I need to spend sometime coordinating with people and see what's out there. Right now, we are still mulling over the possibilities. There should be another FAQ out any time now with more...ideas, possibilities and philosophy attached to it. Velax > Version 4.0? Jagwire X > Yeah. 4.0 Maybe even some sketches in GIF format will be available soon too. Velax > Have you contacted Pat Salsbury about his "Oceana" proposal at all? I seem to recall that going out over exi-essay. Jagwire X > Actually, I was contacted. I have yet to get back to him, but I am anticipating a mutual exchange of information. Velax > Yeah.. I only skimmed his proposal, but it was full of the countercultural technosocial ideas, like Wilson's "trade aids" also at one time on the main extropians list there was a thread about "ocean colonization" but I don't know what came of that. you could ask someone who's a subscriber to check their archives for that thread. Jagwire X > It looks more thought out than mine, I'd say. But soon I think we will be on par. Yeah, I been meaning to subscribe to it myself Velax > hmm. I think you had more details about what might be going on, on board. Velax > Did you know that R A Wilson in Cosmic Trigger II says that when he was a young anarchist he was interested in setting up anarchist colonies in international waters? maybe you should contact *him* too & see if he has any references or contacts or ideas that could be relevant. Jagwire X > Cool, I haven't read Cosmic Trigger II yet. Velax > The book's actually dedicated to Buckminster Fuller Jagwire X > Heh, cool, not surprising though. Velax > So what else specifically does the AUtopia project need now? apart from subscribers to the mailing list. Jagwire X > People, who are interested in working on it, gathering info, coordinating various aspects. Mostly organizational stuff at this point. Later it will need people (the same ones hopefully) who want to do physical work. Velax > So you'd hope to soon reach the point where there is effectively a specialization amongst the interested people? I mean, one looking at legal stuff, another at onboard comm tech, and so on.. Jagwire X > Yeah, I'd like to see different working groups that can get down to the nitty gritty of various aspects of the project. Once that happens things will get rolling. Velax > The previous AUtopia "position papers" or drafts describing the concept had a neat listing of relevant topics & so on, would that be how the working groups would come about? if someone says, 'okay, I'll address section 3a..' and so on.. Jagwire X > In a way. Yeah. In the next version I should, hopefully, have it broken up into different sections (for each working group). So, yeah. Velax > It seems to me that a really vital thing now is coming up with at least a hypothetical scenario whereby an actual geographic location is found and actual hardware is procured. otherwise it will remain just a fantasy. in this regard, I seem to recall that future culture carried some discussion of where you might buy old destroyers from [was it eastern European countries selling off their navies?], and the extropians thread on ocean colonization discussed whereabouts in international waters you might have the least chance of being harassed.. I think one of the optimum locations was off some small southeast Asian nation. Jagwire X > Yeah. Ideally, I would like to see a ship that can actually move about. If it was stationary I would think that a southeast Asian nation would be a suitable locale. Velax > hmm.. the question of mobility is related to the question of size, basically, I think. you need to know what sort of vessels are available - submarines? destroyers? crude oil carriers? etc etc. heh just had an idea. maybe you could learn from L Ron Hubbard's "sea org", he had a private flotilla of yachts or something like that. Jagwire X > Getting the hardware is going to be the most difficult part. And it will require some preparation on the part of the people involved. It will take some time to accomplish (at best). Even so if it does not come to fruition, it still is an excellent... mental exercise for the parties involved. Velax > hmm. if, say, AUtopia foundered in its present form, for one reason or another, then the thought which had gone into the social and technical aspects might prove useful to future attempts to design new edge communities, but.. nonetheless there are a lot of issues specifically relating to the idea of a new-edge colony *at sea*. and they are the most difficult ones, as far as actually achieving this goes. Jagwire X > True. Velax > but it's hard to see where else a new-edge colony could go, in the near future. I used to think about having some sort of research community in the Australian outback, but most of that land is either barren or belongs to mineral companies or aboriginal tribes. Applies to the American desert. Velax > I was musing about other possible locations.. the point I was getting around to was that at sea seems to be the best possible location for a generic new-edge colony at present. the only other place I can imagine would be in a ghetto somewhere, or maybe sibe Jagwire X > Well, in orbit would be nice, but unlikely. I certainly wouldn't mind living in space. Velax > Siberia that is.. since the Russian government wants to develop its eastern regions & wants foreign investment too, or something like that well, I presume that the new edge will get into orbit eventually, but the AUtopia timescale seems to be more like late 90's early 21st century. Jagwire X > Somehow I don't think they would want us there. Yeah, the ocean is the most likely candidate. Velax > All this relates back to what you said about, even if AUtopia doesn't come to fruition anything that gets thrashed out here can still help future enterprises like this.. Velax > The point is that if it's ever going to happen at all, anywhere, it looks as though it will have to start at sea. Jagwire X > Yeop. Velax > So even the specifically "nautical" considerations that will be discussed on AUtopia will be of future relevance, not just the generic contemplation of new-edge autonomous communities. Velax > [does that make sense?] Jagwire X > Yeah, I think so. Like even for non New Edge ocean colonization. Velax > Another thing that has occured to me. on leri-l someone talked once about setting up a bot on irc channel #leri and automating a process whereby all conversation on the channel would get sent to the mailing list. maybe you could do that with AUtopia too. [concerning non New Edge ocean col.] yes, that too. do you know how often people visit #AUtopia? Jagwire X > Nope. I have no idea. I am often not around as I am still await the full INTERnet connection at my base of operations. Velax > Is that wixer.cactus.org? Jagwire X > Yeah. That's the place. Home of AUtopia, Scream Baby and FringeWare. Velax > Yeah, I'm very curious about it. does you or Blade X or Paco work for wixer or cactus or whatever organization this is? Jagwire X > Blade X, Pacoid and I are the big three freaks there. No none of us do. It's run by George Wenzel and frankly I don't know much about it. 'Better, Faster and Cheaper' is their motto (I think), but don't quote me on that. Velax > heh, ok Velax > I remember on fut-cult a while back there was a discussion about which city is more cyberpunkish or new-edgey, and I remember someone saying that Austin was one of the best places to be, to be connected to the techno-underground Jagwire X > Yeah, it definitely is. The amount of New Edge per capita has got to be higher than anywhere else. Plus there's a whole lot of high-tech industry here. The University of Texas, more BBS's than you can shake a stick at. Members of the Legion of Doom. A local chapter of EFF. Plenty of Raves (if your into that). Tons of live music. etc. etc. etc. Velax > So you have high-tech industry [computers? genetics? aerospace?] connected to utexas, plus drugs, raves, mind machines, hackers.. Jagwire X > Plus it's has some of the strictest environmental initiatives in the US, clean air, and it's a sprawl even (size wise if not population). High-tech industry includes all that you mentioned. Velax > how organized is the techno-undeground, do you think? I guess this relates to what you were saying before, about the lack of overarching visions. it seems to me that the most organized people would be groups like LOD. at the level of the new edge as a whole, there's no organization, there's only zines and other info outlets like the mailing lists which provide an overview of what exists,. but don't actually coordinate anything. Jagwire X > How organized. Here it seems to be more organized than most places. EFF-Austin is a contributor to that. Velax > Isn't the EFF basically a civil rights watchdog? officially? I mean, I imagine that at CyberDawg get-togethers, or whatever they're called, people might talk about all sorts of other things, but I'm sure the EFF charter [eg] doesn't say 'we're here to put the nootropics researchers, in touch with the computer underground, in touch with..' Jagwire X > Yeah, that's right. The CyberDawgs present an opportunity for the people to meet face2face. What they do after that is up to them. Velax > hmm. on the topic of the eff, while you were gone I started checking my email and there's a whole heap of messages with subject lines like 'the EFF is over' and 'shakeup at the eff'. do you know what this is about. Jagwire X > Not really. There was a post about EFF National's changes. The rest was all just opinions and hype. Apparently some people are not pleased with what they are doing. Me I don't have much of an opinion about it. Velax > Well, just viewing one long message, which I think is the post about the national changes, it says something about not forming local chapters. where would that leave EFF-Austin, any idea? Jagwire X > Well, EFF-Austin is an incorporated entity unto itself. It is not actually a subdivision of EFF-National. Velax > okay, so this would really appear to be just an organizational change, not a change of goals or anything. however, to relate this back to what I was saying before, the EFF is an organization which concentrates on the future of the net, or cyberspace, & in particular on civil liberties in cyberspace. That's only part of the new edge. for example, nanotech, nootropics & other forms of R&D on the one hand, & raves, mudding & other on-line _culture_ on the other, are part of it too. what I was trying to get at is that there is nothing concerned with the whole new edge, as far as I can see, apart from zines like Mondo 2000 etc. Jagwire X > Yes. That's right. As far as I know it does not promote any of the other aspects of the New Edge. Yeah, in the sense that any magazine is a discussion of a subject. I would say that M2k and bOING-bOING do quite a good job of blending various aspects together. Velax > And they are more reporting on the scene rather than trying to involve it all in some common enterprise, as AUtopia would. So there would seem to be a need for 2 things, that I can think of: i] a group with an "EFF-like" approach to the whole issue of technoculture, and ii] trying to create the space - a "TAZ" - where new edge activities can be pursued. this is where AUtopia fits in, I guess. Jagwire X > You got it. Velax > I've never seen bOING bOING here in oz, unfortunately Jagwire X > I am probably going to have to go for good RSN. Velax > Yeah, I guess it might be about time. it must be about midnight there by now? Jagwire X > No, 8:30 pm. I just have some stuff I have to do b4 it get's late. I've enjoyed it and thanks for the opportunity! Velax > Yes, its bee fun & quite interesting. Maybe someday I'll be able to interview you at jagwire@autopia.com Jagwire X > Heh. Hopefully! Feel free to e-mail me if you have any further questions. BCNUL8R Velax > Sure. well, I'll probably see you on future culture, AUtopia or leri, anyhow. Ok, see you.. -----end of Interzine #1--------------------------------------------------- ______________________________ Subject: major deluded revelation has just happened Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 3:41:09 EST From: Mitchell Porter I just read Andy's last post, about Mindvox/Wired and other matters, and for some reason had a major delusion of revelation.. that "this" (cyberspace, or what passes for cyberspace at present, and more specifically this neck of the woods - the mailing lists etc) is "it" (the in-place, the essence, the happening centre) of the Nineties. now thats one hell of a huge statement and it deserves qualification at the very least, and also its not very postmodern to talk of THE CENTRE of anything, instead youre supposed to see the world as lots of happily equal centres of influence all affecting each other.. and to some extent thats true. BUT, at different times different subsubsubcultures come to have a greater influence than others, & something about Andy's message seemed to highlight this to me. _not_ because it made any outrageous claims like I'm doing.. instead, the message itself was evidence of this, or a manifestation of the _reasons why_ something is happening here.. i think it was the bit where andy offered to type something out, or i actually forget what it was.. the point was, it just struck me how many dedicated people there are who work _very_ long hours doing things for.. "us". their cohorts on the net. now sure, theres economics on the new edge, and whatnot - was it "drow" who said something about mondo being really expensive, or whatever? - and of course andy's trying to publish his zine, and everybody has little schemes to _get by_ which in some way or other _touch on_ and _exploit_ this new thing that we have here.. BUT there is also a hell of a lot of sheer "selfless" labor, done for the hell of it, because its fun, & because the people who do that work see it as worthwhile - leading to something.. i'm dancing arond the point here a bit, but hell this is a fullblown at-keyboard rant. the New Edge - or the bit of it that is here in the net.dark.corners - is us. ie on leri-l people refer, and often defer, to leary wilson and lilly as psychedelic pioneers, and on fc people tal about gibson & sterling, and the same thing happens elsewhere.. bt i think people are starting to wake up, or SHOULD start waking up, to the fact that when it comes to the NET-manifestation of all these topics, _we_ are the experts, JUST BECAUSE we happened to be doing it first. maybe this is what characterizes what i think i'm seeing here: the radical novelty of the means of communication, the forms, and even much of the content. anyhow, add this to the list of statements that there is _something_ very new here, being born or starting to awaken, and we - YOU, reading this right now (unless youre reading it in some archive in 2050) - are a participant. the net is fluid and very young. what form wold YOU wish it to assume? ______________________________ From: sdw@meaddata.com (Stephen Williams) Subject: Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 - turnkey internet gateway Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 10:05:47 -0500 (EST) > > > This is for my turnkey Local Internet Gateway, which is my plan for > > helping the masses meet Internet.... > can you tell us more about this? does l.i.g have a blurb we could see? > Well.... I was flamed by Nick Mordanzo for responding to a related question with information.... I'll put you on my mailing list for LIG's. If a number of people are interested in seeing the information again, I'll post an update to future. I think that it's relavent since my main goal is to get access to as many people as possible. Since I'm trying to help people start their own businesses in local areas, I don't feel I'm out to make a quick buck or anything. Here is the dissenting opinion: ->Return-Path: ->To: future@nyx.cs.du.edu ->Subject: pagesat bullshit ->Comments: Can I play with madness? ->Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 11:39:44 EST ->Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system ->X-Status: -> ->sdw (Stephen Williams) sez- -> ->[A ***LOT*** of shit deleted] -> ->> > ">to handle the news was a bummer) The one problem with receiving news ->> > "[...] ->> > ">Len Rose at PageSat has been a big help in getting everything running ->> > " ^--- Is this *the* Len Rose??? ->> Yes. Actually, Len called me early this year in response to an early ->> message that I was thinking of doing LIG's. He happened to mention ->> that he was a 3b2 expert. I had been talking to Norman Gillaspi, ->> owner of PageSat/ISS, and he mentioned that he needed help with his ->> 3b2 to use as a server. I suggested Len, and he has been working ->> there day and night pretty much ever since. ->> ->> > " ->> > "So who is uploading this feed and what are the equipment and recurring ->> > "costs requred to receive it? ->> Pagesat, which is in the business of building satellite reception ->> electronics and reselling channels to others (mostly paging ->> companies). The channels are standard ccitt telephone multiplexed ->> channels (60/multiplexer). (I think :-)) ->> ->> Since it's one plex channel out of 60, it's already paid for and not ->> too much of a load on Pagesat. ->> -> ->[A LOT more shit deleted] -> ->Do you think that you dudes hawking this Pagesat satellite get rich in 5 ->minutes and read news crap could keep is OFF this list? You seem to have ->confused us with alt.usenet.give.me.money From what I've seen on usenet ->you get flamed there too for dumping this into inappropriate places. -> ->The only way this is even remotely connected to anything is by using "Len ->Rose" as a placecard to tie it into Vox/Cyberpunk. You should read what ->Len has to say about some of the people using his name everywhere. Reading ->Mindvox he gets easily upset, maybe you should leave the guy alone and ->market your shit by yourself on usenet. -> ->Clue! And another pro: ->Return-Path: ->Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 13:06:49 -0500 ->To: future@nyx.cs.du.edu ->Subject: Pagesat -- newsfeed via satellite ->Reply-To: ci788@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Keith S. Brown) -> ->A previous responder to sdw's post says... ->> Do you think that you dudes hawking this Pagesat satellite get ->> rich in 5 minutes and read news crap could keep is OFF this ->> list? -> ->Some of us are just a little _sensitive_ about what gets posted, ->don't you think? -> ->To paraphrase the Bible: -> -> Let everyone be quick to subscribe -> Slow to post -> and slow to flame... -> ->I, for one, was happy to get a good description of Steve's ->current efforts and believe FutureCulture was an entirely ->appropriate medium. Some of us seem to be dream-weenies, ->loving to philosophize and never getting the message that a lot ->of meat stuff (research, design, investment, development, ->investment, marketing, lobbying, investment, ...., ....) has to ->happen first--before there can be a live-action cyberspace ->chicken in every ono-sendei pot. -> ->Whose silicon are most of using, anyway? Who bought it and who ->paid to develop it? Who will finance the next big leap? We can ->either wait for Al Gore and friends to build the DataSuperHighWay ->with everyman's tax dollars (implication: doing it the ->government's way, oh joy) or we can support those who are trying ->through very legitimate personal initiative to drive down the ->cost of jacking-in for the boonies-resident. Not that this ->should become the Shopping Channel, but if we can endlessly ->discuss utopian visions and the relative beauty of net.citizens, ->an occasional posting describing--even promoting--the stuff ->_actually_ going on to lay the foundation for the matrix ought ->to be tolerated without flame. -> ->Here's to Steve -- the Sam Walton of Cyberspace. ;) ->"Virtual Reality for the Heartland." sdw -- Stephen D. Williams Local Internet Gateway Co.; SDW Systems 513 496-5223APager LIG dev./sales Internet: sdw@world.std.com CIS 76244.210@compuserve.com OO R&D Source Dist. By Horse: 10028 Village Tree Ct., Miamisburg, OH 45342 GNU Support ICBM: 39 34N 85 15W I love it when a plan comes together ______________________________ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 12:26 EST From: Matt Willis Subject: Kroupa I was on Mindvox the other day and I was curious as to why their information said that they had HST access, and no HST lines... So I asked Jack (the system administrator) and he spouted off something about their incompatibility with UNIX (???).... (I believe owning a USRobotics is next to Godliness) so I decided to go straight to the head honcho... Kroupa himself... (God, man, he wrote to Kroupa!) He wrote me back after about a week and a half... but there was something terribly awry... (Imagine setting of Boy Scout leader and Cubbies around campfire) I knew it wasn't going to be a pleasant letter when he started it with "I have two book deadlines and 260 mail messages"... Then he began ranting about his lack of sleep then followed with something about his dog (a private situation which I cannot bear myself to reveal) I passed out at that point... an idol, revealed as human... When I came to, I wrote him back, with my symapthy and affection for his dog... he hasn't replied, I hope his sanity returns... he was quite mad... (pot calling the kettle, what?) +-------Matt-Willis--------------------------------+ | Matt Willis ASTMWILL@STETSON.BITNET | elsewhere: | Matt Willis Head of the Underground | mwill@mindvox.phantom.com | Matt Willis Robotech PBM List | +-------Matt-Willis--------------------------------+ "Absolutely alone in awareness of the mechanism." -Agrippa by WG ______________________________ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 12:35 EST From: Matt Willis Subject: Hush-Hush TOP SECRET INFO OBTAINED AFTER DAYS OF INTENSIVE HACKING (actually it was a global post, but I like melo-drama) > BEGIN TRANSMISSION [%] Important Information TOO SECRET to be Printed here! [%] Hey! -- although this is a warm and fuzzy form-letter, it doth pertain to thee, so please read, assimilate, comprehend, understand and laminate this document at your earliest possible convenience. During the next three weeks (that's until the end of January, earth time), MindVox will be moving sideways and becoming an even greater menace to the social fabric of the 20th century. In other words, we are moving to larger offices downtown. 'Cuz if a big of- fice isn't downtown, then what good is it anyway . . . ? ______________________________ From: YOUR! Since Vox will be moving onto entirely new equipment, for a brief instant in history, a parallel rift shall open within time and space and there will be TWO of MindVox, they will fight a duel, and the winner will banish the loser to the alternate universe where the Amiga and NeXT rule in harmony, MSDOS has died the ugly death it deserves and Bill Gates is a penniless pauper. Anyway, here is the basic, general, top-down, kinda overview of what shall be happenin' - - - - - - - - - -> MindVox will be moving from the main system it lives on right now (a NeXT Turbo) to a LAN; the main MindVox machine will become a SparcSERVER with 128mb RAM, the auxiliary Vox server will be the SparcStation2 with 64mb, which will house various extensions to MindVox which run through tel- net sessions, sockets, whatever . . . -> Right now when you call MindVox and the phone rings, and rings, and rings and . . . it means all 16 physical dial-ups are FULL at the moment (they get that was FAST during prime-time which runs from around 4pm until 4am . . . lot of primetime in there huh?). Our local lines double from 16 to 32. 16 of them will be TeleBit WorldBlazer modems; to blurb briefly- DISTINCTIVE FEATURES - PEP - Telebit's original PEP divided the telephone channel into 511 carrier frequencies and used sophisticated error checking to provide the highest throughput and most robust connectivity in the industry. - Turbo PEP - Telebit has improved PEP with enhanced packetization and up to seven bits per carrier. The net result is data rates of up to 23,000 bps *without* data compression. The WorldBlazer also uses Trellis Coding to provide even more robust connectivity over poor channels than our original PEP. Turbo PEP provides optimum performance by matching the channel as closely as 10 bps. - Universal Compatibility - The WorldBlazer transparently connects with the large installed base of PEP modems and also supports all CCITT standard modulations. It transparently connects with other V.32bis and V.32 modems at 14,400, 12,000, 9600, 7200, and 4800 bps; V.22bis modems at 2400 bps; V.22 and Bell 212A modems at 1200 bps; and V.21 and Bell 103J modems at 300 bps. - Data Compression - CCITT V.42bis data compression now provides capabilities of up to 4:1 for both Turbo PEP and CCITT modulation modes yielding data rates in excess of 70,000 bps. The WorldBlazer is backward compatible with both Telebit Lempel-Ziv compression and MNP 5. - Fastest DTE Speeds - The WorldBlazer supports DTE speeds of up to 115,200 bps, allowing the highest throughput in the industry. [end blurb] The remaining 16 lines will be running at 2400/9600 for a couple of weeks until we upgrade them to some other type of v32.bis (+) modem (Motorola V.Fast compliant modems, or something similar. Perhaps USRs if they have cleaned up their firmware to work properly with Unix by then). -> Our Bandwidth will increase to Fractional-T1. What this means is: o FTP, FSP and DCC (under IRC) will all be turned on. WaReZ DooD! o MindVox will NFS-mount several mirror sites into the Archives, the end result of this is a transparent integration of local and network services into one contiguous-appearing filesystem which contains some 35-40 GIGABYTES of software available for download. MORE wareZ do0d! o Telnet will be approx 25 times as fast (in other words, being hooked into MindVox over the net, will be pretty much the same speed as if you were huddled beneath the shadowy monoliths aglow with flickering light where MindVox hums to itself and plots to WAKE UP and become one the Matrix). o We will be running our own IRC server. Yes that's right kids, get IRC-COP & become a totalitarian menace to society, annoying everyone unfortunate enough to even look at you out of the corner of their eye. o Joining IRC will be the ICB network, along with a THIRD worldwide network that MindVox will be beta-testing. (Shhhh!) o A complete INFORMATION-NAVIGATION package will come online. More details soon! -> NEWS will say bye-bye and wish PSI a warm farewell, moving onto an up to the minute NNTP server, instead of the 2-days old mess which PSI sees fit to send its clients right now. -> About 10 new games will come online, some of them multi-player, making way for the introduction of MaelStrom making its debut . . . . . . which leads to: - - - - - - - - - The current phase of system growth/solidification, will take us into Feb / March, around which time MindVox itself will be fairly stable and not liable to FLY out of anything, or make SUDDEN CHANGES and SHARP TURNS. Most effort at this stage will begin focusing on getting at least our basic Point & Click GUI's running for the PC, Mac & X -- and making Mael- Strom wake up from its slumber and take corporeal form. Ok, thats it for now, in at least the immediate future it is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED (IN CAPITAL LETTERS) that you read the NEWS section of the Mind- Vox forums to keep up with what's going on, or you'll fall behind the rest of the class and they'll all laugh at you. You can read news by typing (drum roll): read news at the main menu. If you want to, you can also JOIN news, to have it automatically picked up by your New message Scan. As a wise man once said, it's hard to hold a candle in the cold November rain. z00m Patrick & Bruce & Stu & Lee & Andy & Jack & Dave & Yuri & Kai & Bill and like whoever else I am forgetting, remind me that you exist and are chained up in our dungeon. Thanks, and enjoy the show. > END TRANSMISSION I wonder what their top-secret net is going to be??? Life at Mindvox has actually been kinda dull lately... After Agrippa's and Agr1ppa's release, what else is there... oh, not to mention Kroupa's being committed to an asylum (a darned lie). sheesh, what next, oh, I know... the Pope could dictate that the Catholic religion could be broadcast only over internet and that the entire world would have to upgrade. (more likely he'd say it's the devil's tool and we'd be thrown back into the middle ages... but that's a debate for another forum) +-------Matt-Willis--------------------------------+ | Matt Willis ASTMWILL@STETSON.BITNET | elsewhere: | Matt Willis Head of the Underground | mwill@mindvox.phantom.com | Matt Willis Robotech PBM List | (but very bored there) +-------Matt-Willis--------------------------------+ "Absolutely alone in awareness of the mechanism." -Agrippa by WG ______________________________ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 18:36:33 CET From: tim Subject: list hopping one of the things i have always found funny is the way threads cross list boundaries quite easily, some time srunning parallel on two lists, sometimes leaving the old list completely. i dont have my lists seperated, and i dont get digests, so they are completely randomly shuffled, and its damn interesting to surf various outlets mixing so completely... i think the two most opposing lists i have been on, which never croissed over, were the technomads list and the grunge or punk lists....but even they touched once, i think tim ______________________________ Date: 20 Jan 1993 12:57:40 -0500 From: I love children----they taste just like chicken! Subject: yes list hopping is most interesting.... ...one of the things i have always found funny is the way threads ...cross list boundaries quite easily, some time srunning ...parallel on two lists, sometimes leaving the old list completely. Yes this is quite nice... with me it happens as an accident. Since I AM stupid and all, I always post stuff to futureculture when I mean to send to nmlist and vice-versa... But it all works out in the end because I think both lists share a rather common body o' subscribers, so half the people probably dont even notice the mistake. randy ikpr500@indyvax.iupui.edu ______________________________ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 10:17:49 -0800 From: vpcsc11@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (student) Subject: Re: Kroupa People can say what they like about the WELL, but at least most of the energy that surrounds it stems from a genuine excitement about the community-building possibilities of electronic communication and *not* from feverish hero-worship of people like Patrick, Bruce and Bill. -- aaron _________________________________________________________________________ | | | That's all for today! | | To send a message to the list: future@nyx.cs.du.edu | | To subscribe/unsubscribe/change format: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | All other requests: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | List Maintainer is: (andy [aka hawkeye]) ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu | |_________________________________________________________________________| | | | The opinions expressed in FutureCulture are those of the individual | | author only. | |_________________________________________________________________________|