From - Wed Jan 14 11:43:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mrco.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA03904; Wed, 20 Jan 93 01:31:19 EST Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA18309; Wed, 20 Jan 93 01:30:26 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10226; Tue, 19 Jan 93 23:30:10 MST From: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (andy) Message-Id: <9301200630.AA10226@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: FutureCulture Digest #184 To: future-digest@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 23:30:09 MST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Status: R ______________________________________________________________________ |______________ / | | / | | u t u r e <___________ u l t u r e | _______________________________________________________________________| Issue #184 Tuesday, January 19th 1993 Today's Topics: --------------- #future excerpt BABIES and the future Crack Wars How to go about legally researching psychedelics... IRC's #Future Kelly D LSD and art lsd, sort of Meme Synergy (yet *another* possible thread) memetic resonance (was re: Meme Synergy) PKD PKD info Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 Re: Crack Wars re: cyber-babies Re: LSD and art Re: Meme Synergy Re: memetic resonance (was re: Meme Synergy) Re: Prozac (was Re: your mail) Re: The WELL (was Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 - turnkey internet gateway Re: your mail research The WELL (was Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1) wired mindvox and well __________________________________________________________________________ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 01:21:25 -0800 From: salsbury@netcom.com (The Butterfly) Subject: How to go about legally researching psychedelics... I think Scotto was asking who was doing reasearch, and just HOW they went about it. Here's some info, for the ambitious, and a word of warning to the casual armchair chemist. :) I'm trimming off the return address info, because I don't think he really wants to be bombarded by tons of e-mail. Thanks. :) Pat ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 01:05:17 -0800 From: Alexander T. Shulgin To: salsbury@netcom.com Subject: research Hi: Research with psychedelic drugs, in humans, requires quite a complex path through the red tape, but it can be done. Take the example of the recent project that is underway at Irvine with MDMA. First, FDA approval. An IND must be applied for, and received. None had even been granted until about two years ago. The first was Strassman in New Mexico, with DMT, then Grob at Irvine with MDMA, then Yensen at Maryland with LSD. The fourth may be Strassman again with psilocybin. Then, the DEA must approve. This might require an approval of a research protocol and the getting of a research licence, but probably no impossible obstacle here. Somewhere along the line, the institutional host must approve the protocol. In California, there is the California Research Advisory Panel (originally informally known as the CRAP group until someone official noticed the acronym) that also must give approval. Then funds must be found. With some, such as the Grob Irvine group, the interest is in the research, and something will proceed as soon as possible, $ or no $. With others, such as the Maryland group, a high priority is on being funded to provide a source of personal income, and the research protocol has a greatly inflated price. It is with the transfer of the Schedule I drug itself that a BND-222 form is needed. And of course the supplier must be registered somehow as a manufacturer with the DEA, and also submit a master file with the FDA with the purity criteria and synthetic procedure that will be followed. But, it can be done. Check out the paper by Strassman in a recent J. Psychoactive Drugs, where he details the process he followed (a two year odyssey) just to get the IND OK'ed. Stay in touch. Sasha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________Think For Yourself_______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury 1800 Market Street #23, San Francisco, CA 94102 Voice: 415/703-7177 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thinking for yourself can be painful. It is easier to follow the lead of popular people than to think for oneself and make one's own decision; but the people one chooses to follow may not have accurate information. -Nadja Adolf ______________________________ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 10:47:15 +0100 From: cardell@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 About the the net and OS design Shaun is right about the use of the net being more transparant now. New operating systems like Amoeba and Plan-9 uses networks in a similar way, so I think this is the way to go. This also makes net.use easier for non-techie types out in the Big Room. I also hope that more of these people get on the net. I've tried to stimulate this myself giving away a lot of terminals to friends lately. Some of them are allready net.addicts, but I didn't get the high response I thought I was going to get. Any ideas why? mikael cardell S P U N K P R E S S ______________________________ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 11:36:25 +0100 From: cardell@lysator.liu.se Subject: BABIES and the future Just a small announcement: My first child was delivered with emergency caesarean section about 2350 this Sunday at the university hospital, Linkoping, Sweden. The labour started about 2300 Friday, so it took almost exactly 49 hours for the little boy, now called Ludvig, to enter this world. Most of this time, from 0800 Saturday, was spent in the hospital. Both the boy and his mother are now allright. She couldn't see her child until about 0230 though, since she was awakening from the operation. The first sight was delivered via a photo since Ludvig was under care and observation and couldn't be moved. When Helena, his mother, was fully awake and was going to be moved, however, she got a chance to touch him for the first time. I'll tell you all when the little one gets his first mail account, but in the meantime you can send mail to his mother at helkul@lysator.liu.se. mikael cardell S P U N K P R E S S ______________________________ From: Steven J. Subject: re: cyber-babies Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 9:01:30 CST Mikael!!! Congratulations on your new child! Give your wife and baby a big FutureCulture hug for us all. Take care... Steve J. White ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed herein are aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu sometimes those of others. aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ______________________________ From: zane@ddsw1.mcs.com (Sameer Parekh) Subject: Re: your mail Date: Mon, 18 Jan 93 15:19:07 -0600 In message <9301171628.AA01687@nyx.cs.du.edu>, the bladerunner writes: > Paul said: > | > |sarcasm mode off. Well, I think that the effects of making LSD legal on > |society are too complex to predict, period. The only way to find out is to > |do it. To say "well, it seems like it will be bad, so let's not do it" is > |akin, in my mind, to living a life of 9 to 5 work days without ever taking > |a chance and trying something new because its scary. > > I think we should give a uzi to every living individual when they turn > 18 so they can protect themselves from the violent world we live in. > The effects of everyone having the same gun are too complex to > predict, so let's just go ahead and do it. > Granted, that paragraph of Paul's *does* seem like that. I think the fundamental difference, in my view, is that giving everyone an uzi is an ACTIVE action on the part of "we." (Who's "we"? Am I? "I had to sign a paper saying I wasn't a member of any organization I didn't sign up for." -- HDT [badly paraphrased.]) So, let's ignore "we". I think that every individual SHOULD have the right to defend hirself, including giving hir the right to own an uzi and learn how to use it. I wouldn't support a government action to use the taxpayers money to give guns to everyone, but I *would* support a group which will teach people how to defend themselves and arm them. I think that peace can only happen if enough people are armed so that someone who wants to hurt someone else will have a really large chance of getting killed in the transaction. An example at a recent party.. If 10% of all rapists were killed in the act by the rapee, and the rapee wasn't convicted because of a self-defense defense, the number of rapes will go down, in my view. A rapist has a really HIGH chance of getting away without getting caught. A 1 in 10 chance of getting shot would probably be a good deterrent for many rapists. (Not all of them, mind you, but hopefully those rapists will get shot. :-) But here I am going to the gun tangent. That can be discussed at a later date. (I think the mass infusion of lerites into FutureCulture is awfully interesting, eh?) The government, essentially, has no right to tell me what I can do with my body or my mind. If I want to think, I will think. If I want to watch tv, I will watch tv. If I want to take LSD, I will take LSD. The government has no right to tell me not to take LSD, because I am my own individual. Let's look at society. Let's pretend that "society's" rights are supreme. That doesn't mean that the government should control people's thoughts and bodies. The government can't predict the future, they don't know what will happen. > The effects are not too complex too predict...Nothing is too complex > to predict...I think your statement is the perfect implication for Er, ever heard of chaos theory? Iterated functions like x(x-1/4) are too complex to predict. (Something like that...) > > Anyway, predicting future trends is practically a science. Predicting > future trends is how one succeeds in the world, since it increases > your understanding of the present as well as the future. I heartily Yes, it is how one succeeds in the world, but suppose I think that free LSD will be great for society, and you think that free LSD will be bad for societ, both based on our prognostications, looking at our evidence. Critical Path reasoning is very subjective. Just because I think free LSD should happen [I *don't* think free LSD without training should happen-- I'm being hypothetical] doesn't mean the govt. should force you to pay taxes to fund a venture. Just because you think free LSD shouldn't happen doesn't mean that the government should pass a law prohibiting me from giving LSD to people for free, purchased with *my* money. > despise the "sit back and see wht happens" attitude since it is very > passive. I can't stand a passive existence anymore. It's basically > leeching off the world, IMHO. If you're not out there, changing your > reality, working for success in your future reality, and if you're not > making any contribution to society, then why live? It seems to me > that a passivity towards the future is only anxiety rationalized. > Anxiety of the unknown seems practically inherent in people. If that > wasn't the case we wouldn't have prejudice, racism, wars, etc. It is everyone's choice to be passive or not. Knowing Paul, I know that he is not "passive." He *is* out there, changing his reality, but he accepts that his reality is different than everyone else's and doesn't want to force his reality on everyone else. > > Again I'd like to say that some people who feel they're happy and in a > good state of mind have had bad experiences with LSD that have the > potential of forever altering their realiy in a way which they are > apparently inable or unprepared to cope with. Because it's the answer > for you doesn't mean it's the answer for everybody. It's a risk people have the right to choose to take. (That's why I'm not in favor of giving people LSD for free without educating them first. Maybe after someone takes many hours of education then maybe they should get LSD for free, but free LSD for all will end up with uninformed people taking it.. Just 'cause I beleive that though isn't going to make me stop you from giving out free LSD if you want to, although I may yell at you for it.) > > BTW, is it just more or does it seem that just about everyone who > trips frequently loses some sense of objectivity in their relation > with their world? It's subtle in this post, it's evident on the net, Is there something inherently *wrong* with that? -- | Sameer_Parekh zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM | | "Specialization is for Insects" | | Question Authory/Think Alternatives | | -Robert A. Heinlein | "A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded" -Abraham Lincoln ______________________________ From: zane@ddsw1.mcs.com (Sameer Parekh) Subject: Re: your mail Date: Mon, 18 Jan 93 15:41:57 -0600 In message <9301180053.AA05982@nyx.cs.du.edu>, freud is my mother writes: > Scotto said: > |Society hasn't learned *jack* from itself. > > So, technology doesn't exist? Technology is created by INDIVIDUALS, not society. > In my own life, I occasionaly use alcohol, but I don't abuse it, under > standards set by my self, my group of friends, or society at large. > Works for me, and I don't appreciate people shoving down my throat not > to drink, yet I also do not go to high schools and advocate that the > legal drinking age be dropped to 14 since I've had great experiences > with it. I have not had any great experiences with alcohol, nor do I *plan* on using alcohol to any degree. I have decided that FOR ME, the risks outweight the benefits. It's everyone's personal choice. I *do* advocate the abolition of the drinking age, however. Why? I can get into that if the need arises. > > End of story is ok with me...I'm subjectively poooped!! > This goes back to my last couple paragraphs about putting opinions out > there and shit...If it works for you, that's cool. It works for me as > well, and my story is along the same lines of the alcoholic on 48 Hrs > who credited LSD with saving his life - honestly, I don't know if I'd > be here if I hadn't "found" acid - pre-acid I found no meaning to > life, now I find every meaning in life. > > But again if it works for you and the > people you've encountered, that doesn't necessarily imply it'll work > for everybody - more research is needed, IMHO. Just because it won't work for everybody doesn't mean it should be illegal. Like I said earlier: I want the drinking age abolished, but I have no desire to use alcohol. Peace, -- | Sameer_Parekh zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM | | "Specialization is for Insects" | | Question Authory/Think Alternatives | | -Robert A. Heinlein | "A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded" -Abraham Lincoln ______________________________ From: Steven J. Subject: IRC's #Future Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 9:33:43 CST Because of this semestre's work schedule I'll be in #Future for a fair amount of time every Monday from 5-9pm and Tuesday from 9am-2pm. Pop on in and virtually say hi. Steve J. White ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed herein are aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu sometimes those of others. aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ______________________________ From: zane@ddsw1.mcs.com (Sameer Parekh) Subject: Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 93 15:52:27 -0600 In message <9301180924.AA11036@icebox>, Shaun Lowry writes: > > Ditto. Internet access should be provided to all and sundry at minimal cost, > be it via a workplace (Internet access should definitely be considered a > "perk"), and educational institution, or publically funded public access > systems. > I think that the Internet *should* be as cheap as possible, and if I ever get rich (lottery, inheritance from a rich relative I knew nothing about, etc.) I *will* set up a public access internet site, for as cheap as possible. Your statements, though, invoke the libertarian in me, saying that no one should be forced to pay for something (through taxes) that they don't want to pay for. I think privately-owned public access Internet access is the way to go. (The WELL, netcom, ddsw1, MindVox, The World, others.) Except for the World and the WELL, all of these are simple flat-free, relatively cheap sites. -- | Sameer_Parekh zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM | | "Specialization is for Insects" | | Question Authory/Think Alternatives | | -Robert A. Heinlein | "A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded" -Abraham Lincoln ______________________________ Date: 19 Jan 1993 09:09:39 -0700 (MST) From: RGARRETT@CCNODE.Colorado.EDU Subject: Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 From: VAXF::IN%"sml@mfltd.co.uk" 18-JAN-1993 02:44:10.07 Subj: RE: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 Ditto. Internet access should be provided to all and sundry at minimal cost, be it via a workplace (Internet access should definitely be considered a "perk"), and educational institution, or publically funded public access systems. Shaun. Greetings from the Bowels of Hate Central (just a slam on local politics ya'll) So, Who should pay for the cost of Internet access? Public funding? At the expense of which other publically funded programs?? RIght now, Companies (icky word, I know!) like US West Advanced Tech. Bell Laboratories, et al, are supporting the hardware aspects of our beloved forum. Also, Governmental agencies like NSA. No? This is my (admittidly very basic) understanding of The Way Things Are. If "we" are all for supporting the Internet, and its emerging Information Transfer Technologies, shouldn't we be willing to support the cost?? TANSTAAFL, mon! Just a thought.... Another similar topic.... If "we" (sorry, "we" - those of us who use/support/love/live in the psuedo-cyberspace of the Internet) desire to maintain some semblance of how the technology develops, and, more importantly...how civil rights are interpreted within an electronic society, (Read, "EFF") shouldn't we be willing to bear a share of the responsibility for the cost (not just monetary) of the whols shebang?? Admittidly, it could/would/should be a small cost individually, but as a whole, user support (read conversly! >;-> ) is a huge resource...no? A completely different topic.... Fascinating discussion in the psychedelic thread!! Does anyone know of any recent news on the Navajo and other Southwest Native American groups' fight to maintain legal use of peyote as a part of their spiritual beliefs?? All you chemists out there: How does Peyote work? similar to psilocybin? What?? I dunno and would like to find out. Thanks for the info in advance!! This is my first post to this group, so, please be gentle.....! later! Rich ______________________________ From: Steven J. Subject: Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 10:13:47 CST ______________________________ From: the! It could be that people just don't 'get it'; meaning that they don't fully understand the global connectivity (read magic ;-) that is accessible thru the net. I've experienced this when just showing friends what I can do with the services I have access to. ->mikael cardell Steve J. White ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed herein are aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu sometimes those of others. aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ______________________________ From: sml@mfltd.co.uk (Shaun Lowry) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 16:16:24 GMT Subject: Re: Prozac (was Re: your mail) In message 'Re: Prozac (was Re: your mail)', Sameer Parekh writes: > >In message <9301180944.AA12583@icebox>, Shaun Lowry writes: >> >> An interesting point about Prozac is that it can be used to block any >> neurotoxic effects of X... > Where's your source for this and what effect does it have on the >"desired effects" of MDMA? I got the info from the alt.drugs Ecstasy FAQ, and there, it's extracted from an article in the June '91 edition of High Times. Their quoted reference was Dave Nichols speaking at the Bridge Conference held at Stanford University in February of that year. The effects that Prozac will block are only the long-term secondary neurotoxic effects of MDMA. Serotonin depletion appears to occur shortly after an MDMA trip (in the order of hours after comedown), but this clears itself up after 24 hours or so. The secondary effect is that some time in the order of weeks to months later, the serotonin levels in the body will begin to drop again, because the body has lost serotonin receptors. Prozac apparently blocks the uptake of dopamine-like metabolites of MDMA into serotonin receptors, the dopamine being toxic to them, but this would have little or no effect on the immediate effects of MDMA, as these recptors are not involved. It is, I understand, questionable whether serotonin depletion on this scale does any damage, or affects the behaviour of an individual in any way wahtsoever, but in the abscence of long-term trial data, any conclusions made now will be premature. It has been suggested that the brain can quite easily compensate for serotonin depletion in other ways, but as to the lasting effect of these measures, again, we don't know. If you want further information I suggest that you read the FAQ I mentioned earlier, and some of the papers referenced by it. Shaun. -- /s(Shaun Lowry)def/g{.7 setgray}def/c{10 0 -1 arc fill}def 300 600 100 0 360 arc stroke 300 600 50 180 0 arc stroke g 300 600 c stroke 1 2 scale 270 325 c stroke 330 325 c stroke grestore 125 450 moveto/Helvetica findfont 60 scalefont setfont gsave 0.03 .09 rmoveto g [ 1 0 2 -1 0 0 ] concat s show grestore s show showpage ______________________________ From: garrett@math13.rice.edu (David Garrett) Subject: Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 10:47:34 CST > It could be that people just don't 'get it'; meaning that they don't fully > understand the global connectivity (read magic ;-) that is accessible thru > the net. I've experienced this when just showing friends what I can do with > the services I have access to. I agree completely. I've often found myself attempting to explain the Internet/Usenet and all of its ramifications to friends, and been greeted with confusion and/or amazement. I have found that, to most people not involved with the Net, simply the concept of being able to send email across the world easily is incredible. And that's only the tip of the electronic iceberg. As someone who is very familiar and conversant with the nuts and bolts hardware aspects behind the Net, I take them for granted often, and prefer to focus on the philosophical aspects, i.e., global connectivity as an engine of social and cultural transformation. In my experience, however, people that are unfamiliar with the Net in general tend to initially be fascinated with the technology that allows the Net to function as it does and miss the big picture of what this capability is going to do for people. Sort of like forgetting that your computer is a tool that allows you to do certain things more easily, instead of an end in itself. Dave Garrett garrett@math.rice.edu ______________________________ From: Marlin Johnson Subject: PKD info Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 10:49:04 CST And IKPR500@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU said: -> Anyone know of any good critical writings on PK Dick? -> Especially about "VALIS"? There have been a number of compilations and re-prints done in the last few years (of PDK material, that is). A good source to get to would be the PDK fan club located somewhere in CA. Helpful, I know, but my library is across town at the moment. Find one of the newer reprints at your local bookseller's establishment and you'll probably find their address in the preface. Marlin mjohnson@bsc835.uucp ______________________________ Subject: LSD and art Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 11:47:26 -0500 From: Michael C Lee This is my first post, so, pardon my lack of grace. I guess that I just want to get my two cents in. I do think that some people (personality types) shoul d NEVER touch LSD; this is from personal observation (well I live in But, I feel that artists who wish to experiment with the stuff should be allowed to have it ( for free or whatever, the stuff's pretty cheap isn't it?). 1. Psychedelic art has been around for a long time, and, I think that it is a valid and important (sub?)category of the (sum total) art of a culture. 2. Art is a form of expression, and people should be allowed to express themselves as they choose; provided it does not interfere with other's lives who do not wish to be affected by it. 3. You (I) do not have to trip to appreciate pychedelic art. Music, that claims to be 'psychedelic', is also good in a 'normal' state of mind (usually). [OK I've come across some stuff I don't particularly like, but I sure someone out there is listening to it straight and enjoying it too]. The same holds true (for me anyways) for painting, literature, etc. Oh well, that's my opinion at any rate. later, Mike ______________________________ Date: 19 Jan 1993 12:08:35 -0600 (CST) From: "free agent .rez" Subject: PKD randy: >Anyone know of any good critical writings on PK Dick? >Especially about "VALIS"? try "IN SEARCH OF VALIS: the EXEGESIS of PKD;" his own words on the subject. ie, 8 years of diary stuff (combed through and excerpted) as he tries to model and figure out what the fuck's going on ALL BY HIMSELF. in that light, i'd say he came up with some interesting stuff. also, for "Fiction," get a hold of "Radio Free Albemuth," last novel on the subject, it TOO gleaned from his papers. it was never really meant to see publication, and ends up going into a LOT of extrapolative detail on the "network" of minds connected by VALIS, on the "network" of information transmitted between fully developed stellar systems amongst and between themselves, all sorts o' neat-o stuff. >2 cents: I consider PK Dick to be superior to Gibson in most aspects. well, gibson seems primarily concerned with "speculative satire" and PKD took his influence (in late years) from a "mystical" experience, this HAD to treat it seriously or else have himself committed. had gibson been able to sit in 1983 and gaze into a crystal ball to 1993, HE might have thrown HIS word processor out the window and had HIM-self committed... .rez - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "The targeted numerals of the ACADEMY LEADER were hypnogogic sigils preceding the dreamstate of film." -- w g ______________________________ Date: 19 Jan 1993 12:29:51 -0600 (CST) From: "free agent .rez" Subject: lsd, sort of >rez }scotto >some of these same people, however, might NOT necessarily espouse legalisation; >they MAY see some sort of crucial element in gathering Data Type Y in the fact >that it is illegal. }I say that these people are idiots. Some crucial element to robbing people's }houses and killing other people, for the people who do it, is that it isn't }sociologically mandated. I do not want to be classified along with those }people. It should not be illegal, and if part of the thrill for "some" is }that, in fact, they could go to jail, I can suggest a myriad of other }activities. hmmm... ok, a Thrill Factor wasn't what i was referring to. scotto and i talked in real-time, and the analogy i came up with (the only one that quite applies fully, so pardon the participants in said analogy,) would be the early xtian underground, in the catacombs, from 0 ad to around 500 ad. under persecution, there was, so it seems, a sense of internal cohesion which evaporated on ONE sense when emperor constantine, on his death-bed, embraced xtianity... almost sort of "just in case." from then on, it became the dogma of rome, and people would grant it lip-service whether they believed in it or not. now, isn't this what the xtian underground was SHOOTING for by even getting TOGETHER? or not? i wasn't there, i don't know. i sort of imagine, though, that if the catavombers could see the lip-service mutation which exists today, they would have been MORE careful NOT to come out from underground. MAYBE they HAVEN't, MAYBE the "x"tian underground still exists today. MAYBE *THIS* idea belongs over on alt.conspiracy.theories, but i will say that so-called "undergrounds" IS a topic which Culture of the Future will have to face. be it a "drug" "underground" or a "hacker" "underground" or a "philosophical" "underground or a "scientific" "underground." and the QUESTION has to be, why are they "under" "ground?" is it because what they're doing is illegal, or does it in time become more a question of internal cohesion? who knows? the only thing that seems certain is that REGARDLESS of the legal state of the MEANS (whatever their nature) there will always be PEOPLE who remain in the catacombs in some form or another. why? .rez - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Protect me from the consequences of the above prayer. Amen." ______________________________ From: eknipp@lobo.rmhs.colorado.edu (Ethan Knipp) Subject: Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 12:29:03 MST > In message <9301180924.AA11036@icebox>, Shaun Lowry writes: > > > > Ditto. Internet access should be provided to all and sundry at minimal cost, > > be it via a workplace (Internet access should definitely be considered a > > "perk"), and educational institution, or publically funded public access > > systems. > > I get internet access for free... hehe.... through my school. I *like* it... -- Ethan The Unbeliever eknipp@lobo.rmhs.colorado.edu ______________________________ From: sdw@meaddata.com (Stephen Williams) Subject: Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 14:29:48 -0500 (EST) > > About the the net and OS design Shaun is right about the use of the > net being more transparant now. New operating systems like Amoeba and > Plan-9 uses networks in a similar way, so I think this is the way to > go. Do you (plural:guys/all/folks/vous) know about Alex? It's an NFS server that represents a file system space made of DNS paths (reversed) and automatic anon FTP sessions. It includes caching and an appropriate consistency model. A typical session might be: cd /alex/net/uu/ftp/pub/networking dir cd mail cp elm/* /tmp It figures out where the Fully Qualified Domain Name ends and the file space begins via DNS queries. (The above is ftp.uu.net of course.) If you also use a file tree browser like utree, beginners have a (text) graphical interface to any anon system on Internet.... The master machine/archive for alex is at sp.cs.cme.edu. Vince is the author. Should be trivial to install on a Sparc, but I'm porting it to SysV 3.2 (ISC 386).... This is for my turnkey Local Internet Gateway, which is my plan for helping the masses meet Internet.... sdw -- Stephen D. Williams Local Internet Gateway Co.; SDW Systems 513 496-5223APager LIG dev./sales Internet: sdw@world.std.com CIS 76244.210@compuserve.com OO R&D Source Dist. By Horse: 10028 Village Tree Ct., Miamisburg, OH 45342 GNU Support ICBM: 39 34N 85 15W I love it when a plan comes together ______________________________ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 15:22:11 +0600 (CST) From: Patrick McKee Subject: #future excerpt Just a little excerpt from a discussion on #future with StephenJ. (a little editing was done to make the flow a little clearer....if you have ever used IRC you know what I mean ;) The discussion started talking about drugs and the lsd thread that has been cluttering ;) the mail and evolved into a discussion on what Stephen has been hearing on the AUtopia list started by Jagwire X. I thought I would at least post some of the more pertinent info. (not that it is all that pertinent - unless you count the interzine of Jagwire X) If you think you can handle the unedited version just let me know and I will post it. *sigh* (maybe, maybe not) -----------------------------begin------------------------------------ how is AuUtopia doing? Autopia is crawling along, I guess ... I haven't had the +chance to do the research I planned on doing, yet Hmmm... I want to read up on some of the sources I have found on +intentional communities before I start making calls to the Coast +Guard and stuff I need a base of support knowledge before I begin talking +to those whom we'd be getting materials and ship(s) from yea that seems to be important - have to have a base to +start from. exactement so far as I could tell the idea is so new that people have +a lot to say - lots of energy - hope it holds over into the action +part.... yes ... I think things have gotten to the point where +those interested have to start to do their own homework and then +get back to a place (not necessarily physical) which we can all +start from, know what I mean? +yes I do - Also, I am really concerned tho about drug use +on-board, has there been any discussion on how to deal with that +aspect? not really ... have you read the FAQ/outline? No....I did not - dont think i got a copy.... when did it +go out? very early on... I could e-mail you a copy great - I would like a copy... Either way tho' I think that some sort of constraint (I +hate that word) would have to be set - otherwise.....chaos... I agree ... the reason I asked about the FAQ was that +drug use was mentioned but not in a function of control I'll send it now...ok. done ... enjoy ok great! - I did notice that there was some early +talk on drug use and some mention of what to do with violators of +a code of conduct - something about throwing people overboard.... yea ... stupid shit I don't know ... the two trickiest issues will be +security and drug/alcohol use/abuse that is the kind of stuff that warrants a severe psyche +screen for applicants tho' and even then it seems that by implementing a screen your +effectively negating the effect of a free society... oh yea ... MAJOR psych screens beforehand ... but, of +course, who makes the rules and who knows if those 'in charge' are +in line? def agree on that point - who will be the leader - another +Jim Jones? ;) well, it depends what you call free ... past drug +use/abuse HAS to be a factor ... yea, heh, that'll be the name: +SS Jim Jones II All hands on board SS Jim Jones II hehehe.. hee hee ... I really like the idea of having kids and an +educations system of sorts, beyond that of basic life/survival after some serious considerations I have changed my mind +about having families on board ... it would be great given +families ready for a major challenge families would def have trouble besides, I've always wanted to teach and I think the +state's teahing cert. programs are very strange yea I wanted to be a teacher myself - until I got into the +program that was...... hehe - to strict - no Dr. Suess I think that the family issue is another very important +side that needs to looked at very closely - also, permanence on +board - do you think that maybe 6 mos. stint would be cool with +shore leave as a way to re-aclimate? oh sure ... sealife is VERY hard ... I wouldn't expect +most to be able to handle it for very long the first time out, +myself included def - I grew up in florida on boats and all but still....... 30 min. left on my shift and then Political Data Analysis +lecture [snor...] well, I need the class to graduate, so I should take it in stride, yea well it has been good to finally get to talk to you in real time - I may post this to FC sure ... feel free ... did you get the note about me +being here every Mon and Tues? yep, that is why I came on.... C ya in the flux...... yea, take care ... the flux, I like that heh, FluxBOT *** StevenJ is now known as FluxBOT *** ----------------------------end of file----------------------------- ______________________________ Subject: Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 - turnkey internet gateway Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 20:01:43 EST From: Mitchell Porter > This is for my turnkey Local Internet Gateway, which is my plan for > helping the masses meet Internet.... can you tell us more about this? does l.i.g have a blurb we could see? > > sdw > -- > Stephen D. Williams Local Internet Gateway Co.; SDW Systems 513 496-5223APager > LIG dev./sales Internet: sdw@world.std.com CIS 76244.210@compuserve.com > OO R&D Source Dist. By Horse: 10028 Village Tree Ct., Miamisburg, OH 45342 > GNU Support ICBM: 39 34N 85 15W I love it when a plan comes together > ______________________________ Subject: Re: LSD and art Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 20:24:44 EST From: Mitchell Porter > But, I feel that artists who wish to experiment with the stuff should be > allowed to have it ( for free or whatever, the stuff's pretty cheap isn't it?). I don't know what it's like at your end, but in Australia it's $20-$30 a tab, unless you have friends with connections I guess. Someone is making huge profits. ______________________________ From: mcarpent@ecn.purdue.edu (Matthew A Carpenter) Subject: Kelly D Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 21:59:32 EST Hello, I'm looking for Kelly who helped me to find an archive site for my story Cool Darkness. Unfortunately, over break my mail got screwed up and I ended up loosing your address. If you could please contact me at your aconvenience, I'd appreciate it. Tanx. -Matt mcarpent@en.ecn.purdue.edu P.S. CD 7&8 is coming out tomorrow night so stay tuned. Sorry for the wait. ______________________________ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 23:03:18 -0500 From: Sean Michael Carton Subject: Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1 Amen on the Well. I know that alot of mondoids out there might get excited about this but, for all their talk of "TAZ"'s, autopia, utopia,myopia, etc., its really just about getting dough. I mean, comon', charging over 6 bucks for a magazine that is, by its own admission, a catalog as well as the outrageous rates for the well... If you' gonna talk the talk you gotta walk the walk homeys--the Well is overpriced and undervalued. Elro. ______________________________ From: ahawks (max legroom) Subject: Meme Synergy (yet *another* possible thread) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 21:59:39 MST I'm avoiding replying to the LSD thread today because the current daily digest is going to be *huge*, but there's one thing that I have to address... Sameer brought up the idea that a lot ogf Leri 'ers are showing up here on FC....Great! I encourage more to show up, since Leri's a great forum loaded with some exciting personalities.... However, I'm sure we've all noticed sometime/sompeplace/somehow in our net.experience that we run into the same names over and over and over.... For example, when I saw Sameer's name on a post to FC a couple days ago I thought to myself, "woah, did I resubscribe to Leri?!" cuz that's where I recognize him from - a definite net.presence.... That's one of the features of the Net, of course, it lets us fine-tune our conversations to any degree we choose to- we can read about what we want, skip what we don't want to see, ignore annoying messages, this idea of course is not possible to the same degree in RealLife, thus it seems to promote specialization, and not just specialization in one are or segment of the net, but people seem to pick and choose at l least a *few* corners of the net to inhabit and keep tabs on, and let loose their knowledge... However, does anyone get the feeling that some of these net.dark.corners are overlapping to the point of a synergy? I don't want to expand upon this until I hear if people agree or not, and until people say what net.dark.corners they feel are coming together in the light.... I'm not saying this is some sudden realization or spasmatic evolution, it just seems part of a slow continual process that the net has been engaging in for a long time now..... -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ From: ahawks (max legroom) Subject: The WELL (was Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION #1) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 22:11:49 MST New fresh-scented *Sean Michael Carton* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | |Amen on the Well. I know that alot of mondoids out there might get |excited about this but, for all their talk of "TAZ"'s, autopia, |utopia,myopia, etc., its really just |about getting dough. I mean, comon', charging over 6 bucks for a |magazine that is, |by its own admission, a catalog as well as the outrageous rates for |the well... |If you' gonna talk the talk you gotta walk the walk homeys--the Well |is overpriced |and undervalued. | |Elro. I'm one of the lucky people whose first encounter with the net was free public access - no need to worry about monthly/hourly fees, no need to worry about losing access when I graduate, etc. and still having the privelage of a full newsfeed, unrestricted mail, ftp, archie, a local MUD, etc. Thus, when I first learned of the WELL , a big turnoff for me was the fee, + the ld charges I'd have to pay....I can get around obstacle #2, but hefty #1 is a big hurdle, though the lure of the conversation over on the WELL is still strong for me...But with MindVox, I found the same thing, and closer to my own visions of perfection (Mindvox to me is just an underground WELL [pun half-assedly intended]).... But, at any rate, I'm sure few would be surprised to hear me say I'm all for free and unrestricted net.access (information wants to be free)... I encourage people not to see the WELL as an unapproachable establishment - in fact, it's community seems pretty much the opposite - so let them know you think they charge too much... One aspect I'd personally like to see is expanding the WELL's local forums to a small subset of communties, such as Mindvox.... Ie, have something like this: well.vr well.cyberpunk well.consciousness well.grateful.concerts well.grateful.tapes . and those Usenet newsgroups, which would recognize the WELL as the establishing presence, would be available only on the WELL, MindVox, and some other related sites (Cyberden, Spies in the Wire if it was up, etc.) I'm assuming it's possible to do this since ClariNet exists..... -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 22:11:03 -0700 From: Drow Subject: Re: Meme Synergy It's all starting to come together... Enrique Conty moves from a purely rec.arts.anime nolife to a raa+rec.games.mecha nolife ;), surfer spills what's going on re the eff on mindvox to alt.cyberpunk, mindvox discusses what's being said about it by the schmooze.warez.dweebs who don't like it for x.reason... it's what the net is all about, something to catch us, whatever we are, connectivity, an extension of our minds into the minds of others, theirs into ours. bs like that, you know? and it's not so slow when you consider that it's only been a few years now, it IS a societal spasm, my parents can't relate to this, PERIOD. friends my age who haven't poked at the internet and become addicts themselves can't relate to it anymore. 'computers, yeah. that looks like a pretty primitive word processor, you know. never heard of the microphone wp, who writes it?' it's a capitalist state, you get my 2 cents. were it a socialist state, you'd get non cents. : drow : ______________________________ Date: 19 Jan 1993 23:29:13 -0600 (CST) From: "free agent .rez" Subject: memetic resonance (was re: Meme Synergy) ahawks: >However, does anyone get the feeling that some of these >net.dark.corners are overlapping to the point of a synergy? I'm not saying >this is some sudden realization or spasmatic evolution, it just seems part of >a slow continual process that the net has been engaging in for a long time now. why, shucks, andy, my pet theory is that this is what the Net is involved in CONSTANTLY, all the time. a slow gravitation towards memetic attractors. note that for this to hold, different mailing.lists SHOULD maintain a specific identity, a very definite "Approach," even over a long time. i don't really want to start spewing memetic theory, but i may post a few thingamajigs. i'm really curious about this one, though... because i first heard of FC from scotto, who's been doing the MultiList Approach for awhile. i started it this semester for my project. (i STILL have a few more names out there to sub to.) i can't help, though, but wonder if this "sudden influx" on FC is leri's "fault." i mean, a lot of those posts have been about the 3-letter word, and a lot have been from migrating leri-landers. i don't quite gnow if this is good or bad; leri is notorious for a massive passive of signal/noise. and it's NOT so easy to say post x is one and post y ins another; one man's Noise is another woman's Signal. a vague sort of "experiment" has been running around my head. if there were people subbed to FC, future-tech, and leri, i wonder if eventually 1: all the mail on each list would sort of "distribute" to an even keel on each, 2: each list would maintain specific identity. they each have the capacity to focus on a specific memetic attractor or "realm of discourse." but then, this list of lists could expand indefinitely. i find that i still post as much to leri, but i don't know yet whether that's because i STARTED there and thus feel "at home" or what it is. all sorts of things. i'll cross-post a meme-thing tonight. maybe give SOME idea of where i'm headed with this PROJECT. (can you tell i'm not headed for the "Objective Observation" approach? :) .rez - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "I have a MASTER's degree... *IN SCIENCE!*" ______________________________ Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 00:50 EST From: CKILE@opie.bgsu.edu Subject: Crack Wars Hi all -- In light of all of the chat going on here lately about drugs, and the whole issue of drugs, "smart drugs" and utopias as it comes up in various discourses on/in cyberculture, I just thought that I'd recommend a book that my critical/cultural theory group is reading for our next meeting, Avital Ronell's _Crack Wars: Literature, Addiction, Mania_. Lincoln: Nebraska UP, 1992 (pbk. $9.95) ISBN 0 8032 8944 8 Ostensibly, this is a criticism of _Madame Bovary_ (no shit), but, as usual, Ronell really makes some way cool moves here. (I would also rec. _The Telephone Book_ or the Andrea Juno interview with her in the RE/Search _Angry Women_ anthology for those unfamiliar with her work). The two big assumptions underlying the work are that the history of "high culture" (pun intended) in the West is by and large a history of narcosis (a point she takes from Nietzsche) and 2) literature is akin to "hallucination" [I'm still working my way slowly back over the Dasein stuff] Ronell writes experimentally. One section of the work is a sci-fiish riff in which she writes herself as this immortal scholarly being (who edited Goethe three centuries ago) who becomes fascinated with files about the drug bust of one Emma Bovary that she finds in the safe of a derelict house near Berkley, CA. In the final section, she throws Derrida, Faust, ^Marguerite Marguerite Duras, Heidegger & Emma B. into dialogue about addiction. A tidbit from page 68, one that suggests the compelling range of New mail on node OPIE from OPIE::ATODD A tidbit from page 68, one that suggests the compelling range of this work: "If the literature of electronic culture can be lo- cated in the works of Phillip K. Dick or William Gibson, in the imaginings of a cyberpunk projection , or a reserve of virtual reality, then it is probable that electronic culture shares a crucial project with drug culture. This project should be understood in Jean-Luc Nancy's and Blanchot's sense of desouvrement -- a project without an end or program, an unworking that nonetheless occurs, and whose contours we can begin to read." Get engrossed! I'd be interested to hear what others here think of this book/ essay. I'm still drawn to sixties-ish utopian rhetorics about drugs, but... but...I find them a bit off the point/experience as far as my own experience is concerned. Ack...It's _impossible_ to theorize TRIPPING!!! Oh...forget that I even got into this last paragraph. It's part of an larger ongoing argument that I'm having with myself about Utopias and cyberculture. Really. NEVER MIND!!! I swear, I'm gonna log off & go back to my reading now Crystal Kile Popular Culture/American Culture Bowling Green State Univeristy, Ohio ______________________________ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 21:53:33 PST From: Michael Ney Subject: Re: The WELL (was Re: VIRTUAL QUESTION Re: Andy Hawk writing: But, at any rate, I'm sure few would be surprised to hear me say I'm all for free and unrestricted net.access (information wants to be free)... MN: Well, me too - so is EVERYONE - in theory! BUT. Unfortunately if you have ever set-up even a small BBS, let alone a 1500 member multi-line access, then you surely would KNOW how much all them little dohickeys n knebblies cost :-) On the philosophical side... i think one day net access will be incredibly cheap... that may be once global VR meeting rooms and constant online videoconferencing is paying the phone Co. megabuckeroonies to subsidize the net access to a large extent. Maybe thats around the corner - maybe its not in our lifespan... who can tell? ! Personally: i don't mind paying a reasonable amount for valuable info. I don't like paying for idle chinwagging though. ...who was it that said they HATE the term i'm about to use: my two pennies worth :-) ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ Michael Ney -> EMAIL: visionary@peg.apc.org Visionary Media -> USA: vrxaus@igc.apc.org PO Box 566, Milsons Point -> MINDVOX: vrxaus@phantom.com NSW 2061 Australia -> VOICE: (+61-2) 692-8168 ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ >> Visionary Media - Living deep within cyberspace since 1989 << ______________________________ From: ahawks (max legroom) Subject: Re: memetic resonance (was re: Meme Synergy) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 22:59:10 MST New fresh-scented *free agent .rez* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | |ahawks: | |>However, does anyone get the feeling that some of these |>net.dark.corners are overlapping to the point of a synergy? I'm not saying |>this is some sudden realization or spasmatic evolution, it just seems part of |>a slow continual process that the net has been engaging in for a long time no | |why, shucks, andy, my pet theory is that this is what the Net is involved in |CONSTANTLY, all the time. a slow gravitation towards memetic attractors. Does it ever reach any sort of monism? (that's not the best word, but Roget doesn't live here anymore). Ie, new attractors created out of emerging attractors which create new attractors, etc.... |note |that for this to hold, different mailing.lists SHOULD maintain a specific |identity, a very definite "Approach," even over a long time. Oh, ok. Read before you post, Andy . |i don't really |want to start spewing memetic theory, but i may post a few thingamajigs. | |i'm really curious about this one, though... because i first heard of FC from |scotto, who's been doing the MultiList Approach for awhile. i started it this |semester for my project. (i STILL have a few more names out there to sub to.) Within my own home-grown menu-system which is hogging up too much space on this system, I've begun to create hierarchies of lists I supscribe to: raves (for the varying rave lists), music (klf/orb, manchester, more-to-come!), future stuff (need to get on future-tech still), philosophy (creates the hallucination [no unconscious connection intended] of having space and time to read leri!, so I'll resubscribe), etc. To me, the seperation of hierarchies via the labels I choose is pretty definite, though there's still obvious cross-posting (for example, under the Raves hierarchy, I'll see Pete Ashdown's XDZebra music review posts, but I'll also see them on the Madchester list under my music hierarchy -- I'll read about LSD in FC, and also in Leri which will be a different category).... |can't help, though, but wonder if this "sudden influx" on FC is leri's "fault. |i mean, a lot of those posts have been about the 3-letter word, and a lot have |been from migrating leri-landers. i don't quite gnow if this is good or bad; |leri is notorious for a massive passive of signal/noise. and it's NOT so easy |to say post x is one and post y ins another; one man's Noise is another |woman's Signal. That's definitely true....I try to not think of signal and noise as a ratio, but as two legs on the same grasshopper....you need both to walk, one moves then the other responds, etc. Anyway, as far as this list goes, I'm all for communication exploding as much as possible, so I don't want to set limits on it....Of course this turns off some people, but, well, I understand that there are just some people out there who feel they *have* to limit ther info-intake, and may sadly even be forced to do so by time/money/nasty-sysadmins, etc. *pop* goes the lightbulb: idea for the list - grep in the daily digest process for a subject header which appears more than 5 times, or maybe covers 200 lines, in one day, and auto-seperate those messages into a seprate digest, thus, large threads could be extrapolated onto a seperate digest and would be easier to follow/delete, making it more accessible to people.... Damn, I've got too much stuff to do...Besides, anyway, the tide of a list rises and wanes, and right now this list is definiely on a high, with 700 subscribers, 25-30 messages / day, which is heretofor uncharacteristic of it.... Maybe FC is being attracted to a Leri meme magnet solely based on growth, not the content of the occuring threads... But, then again, there's not a sudden influx of SFRaves people on here (another high-count list), so, who knows..... |a vague sort of "experiment" has been running around my head. if there were |people subbed to FC, future-tech, and leri, i wonder if eventually 1: all the |mail on each list would sort of "distribute" to an even keel on each, 2: each |list would maintain specific identity. they each have the capacity to focus on |a specific memetic attractor or "realm of discourse." but then, this list of |lists could expand indefinitely. i find that i still post as much to leri, but |i don't know yet whether that's because i STARTED there and thus feel "at home |or what it is. all sorts of things. i'll cross-post a meme-thing tonight. mayb |give SOME idea of where i'm headed with this PROJECT. (can you tell i'm not |headed for the "Objective Observation" approach? :) As far as the "home" idea goes, I think that's true for everyone....Once we drop into the pond of the net, ripples go out and meet up with other ripples, but the ripples still originate from that initial drop-point.....My home is alt.cyberpunk, and my crash-condo is FutureCulture...I never really felt at home in the huge woodstock-community that Leri is because it was almost too easy to crash there for the net.night (if that makes sense), ie, I can get uncomfortable in environments I find to be *too* comfortable.... |.rez |- - - - - - - - - - - - - - |"I have a MASTER's degree... *IN SCIENCE!*" "I have a HIGH SCHOOL diploma... *IN BULLSHIT!*" =) -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ From: ahawks (max legroom) Subject: Re: Crack Wars Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 23:09:04 MST New fresh-scented *CKILE@opie.bgsu.edu* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | | I'm still drawn to sixties-ish utopian rhetorics about drugs, but... |but...I find them a bit off the point/experience as far as my own |experience is concerned. Ack...It's _impossible_ to theorize TRIPPING!!! |Oh...forget that I even got into this last paragraph. It's part of an |larger ongoing argument that I'm having with myself about Utopias and |cyberculture. Really. NEVER MIND!!! Aww, c'mon!!!! Release your schizophrenia onto the rest of us at Future-Culture... We live for it!!!! | I swear, I'm gonna log off & go back to my reading now | | Crystal Kile | Popular Culture/American Culture | Bowling Green State Univeristy, Ohio ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ My mom graduated from there, back in the mid-60's or thereabouts I think...I'll ask her for the year.... Anyway, she's a first-grade teacher now.... (she's, like, 52 or 53 years old now, so, you can do the math if you want, I'm too tired)..... So, are you a professor of pop/amer. culture, or is that your major/area of specialization? I've always been interested in studying pop culture from a true sociological perspective, and it's cool to see that attitude increasing in pop-ularity, with pop-culture pop-ping up (sorry, just can';t stop myself tonite) in so many colleges, practically even down to the high scool level....Particularly the flow of subcultures in post-WWII Amer. society - that's what turns me on...When I get to college next fall I plan on taking a few classes that cover that... Anyway, I just can't stop typing tonite....later.... -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ From: Paul Davilon Subject: wired mindvox and well Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 22:20:57 PST Well & MindVox: I'm on both, I never spend more then an hour every few weeks on the Well so I just download the conferences I want to read and leave. I always feel paranoid like the clock is ticking and I don't like it, I think the Well's pricing is too steep. MindVox is much better about this because its real cost effective and has a much edgeier and underground feel to it, it's the real thing, to the Well's people talking about the real thing. Speaking of the real thing, what is happening with MindVox? I heard that Kroupa blew some Wired deadline because he trashed his apartment and put his fist through a window? I talked to a friend of mine in NY who said Kroupa, his fiance, Fancher and some other guy from LOD who wouldn't say his name were in the emergency room yesterday. What was this all about and is everyone ok now? Wired: Who are they????? I read on MindVox that they have billboards and ads all over buses, subways, buildings and it looks as if every guy who used to write for Mondo is going to be writing for them also, or intead of Mondo. I know Sterling, Gibson, Markoff (NY Times and Cyberpunk), Kroupa, Rucker and even R.U. Sirius are there. Is Mondo over? _________________________________________________________________________ | | | That's all for today! | | To send a message to the list: future@nyx.cs.du.edu | | To subscribe/unsubscribe/change format: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | All other requests: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | List Maintainer is: (andy [aka hawkeye]) ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu | |_________________________________________________________________________| | | | The opinions expressed in FutureCulture are those of the individual | | author only. | |_________________________________________________________________________|