From - Wed Jan 14 11:42:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mrco.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA28823; Sun, 17 Jan 93 01:31:05 EST Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA01933; Sun, 17 Jan 93 01:30:02 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00990; Sat, 16 Jan 93 23:30:18 MST From: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (andy) Message-Id: <9301170630.AA00990@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: FutureCulture Digest #181 To: future-digest@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Sat, 16 Jan 93 23:30:17 MST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Status: R ______________________________________________________________________ |______________ / | | / | | u t u r e <___________ u l t u r e | _______________________________________________________________________| Issue #181 Saturday, January 16th 1993 Today's Topics: --------------- Biosphere flop Re: Biosphere flop Re: your mail __________________________________________________________________________ From: verge@cyberden.sf.ca.us Date: Fri, 15 Jan 93 19:57:00 PST Hawkeye & The Gang: Whoa, son, I say, whoa--what's all this (line) noise from Dave about the punks being disbanded--DISBANDED, I SAY (WHERE THE HELL'S THE VOLUME ON THIS-HERE THANG??!) (Ahem) anyway, if my name isn't Raul Duke (and it isn't) CP's about as dead as one of Dr. Adder's patients with a live wire up her--anyway. CP continues to be written, hacked out, hacked with, lived by (been to SF, NY, LA lately?). We still got the S's (Shirley, Shiner, Shepard, Sterling), the R's (Russo, Rucker), Gibson, Farren, Williams, et all. RE/Search is still out there, Semiotext(e) is still plugging away, Autodesk hasn't folded (but--agast--so hasn't MONDO), Future Sex is still (ahem) plugging away. "Bob" is still in his heaven--BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH-- Yeah, but I didn't come to praise Ceasar. FYI: "Steampunk", cute twist of coinage to mean fantasies (usually) set in either alternia or hidden past Victorian (or somesuch) world. Right now, Sterling/Gibson's BLEH! _Difference Engine_ is being banded around. Poor example. Check out, instead: Jeter's _Infernal Devices_ Powers's _The Anubis Gates_ Blaylock _Homoculous_ (Powers/Blaylock are masters of this) Powers's _On Stranger Tides_ H. Harrison's _A Transatlantic Tunnel "Hurrah!"_ (slipstream Steampunk) Lupoff's _Circumpolar_ (has written others like, sort-of slipstream). --BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH-- as for "slipstream" hope more enlightened cybersea surfers will enlighten. Me? The boss is walking this way-- Verge !!!!!!!!!!!!! Pere Ubu sez: "Surrealism au service de la revolution!" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! __________________________________________________________________________ | / |\ | H E \ Y B E R |/ E N [ verge@cyberden.sf.ca.us ] ______________________________ From: verge@cyberden.sf.ca.us Date: Fri, 15 Jan 93 19:56:14 PST Hawkeye & The Gang: In response to Murali's (?) of FUTURE SEX, here's a little ramble down ascii lane about that certain 'zine. Music please-- "--there was this little 'zine, not at all wonderful to see. A brilliant little spark, but boring through and through. The first issue was a bust (and Natillie certainly has those), but Kadrey on VR sex, fairly hot cybersex tales, Shirley stoking the fires of feminism with his "from the edge" postcards of Tai prostitues and their "almost seem to enjoy it". Lisa Palac is the ediatrix, of noble birth and grand qualifications: having taken the helm of the outrageous and Nobel-prize winning lesbo 'zine _On Our Backs_. After that, we come to learn, she got dumped on this project. Knowing this, the first issue (being Natillie's bust) is excusable. "--now issue two just hit the stands, and while it ain't right before me, I can report to the committee it's kinky attitude, it's crotch shots, good photos, Saenz doin' the MacPlaymate/Valerie thang (with his VR sex gizmo gatefold that's cool to beheld. A lady who had bad words for FC, has her time in the sun-guns, naked and soft she basks, in the 'zine she lambasts. The one and only Carol Queen does a review, and the 'zine is better than before, though never better than the real thang--" One change, though, get out your pen and pencils folks, you got the suite wrong: FUTURE SEX 1095 Market Street Suite *809* SF, CA 94103 --I have their office number, so give 'em a call (it's printed in the 'zine, so it ain't a big score): (415) 621-5496 It's recommended, can't wait for number three, or four. Ah, but I may have reason to be predjudiced about number four-- Verge !!!!!!!!!!!!! Pere Ubu sez: "Surrealism au service de la revolution!" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! __________________________________________________________________________ | / |\ | H E \ Y B E R |/ E N [ verge@cyberden.sf.ca.us ] ______________________________ From: verge@cyberden.sf.ca.us Date: Fri, 15 Jan 93 19:45:08 PST Hawkeye, Steve & The Gang: Do you pester the magician to reveal the secrets of his tricks? Do you read the last page of a mystery first? Whatever happened to the wonder of life? One of favorite quotes, from the domain of the theatre: "Don't Let The Wheels Show". Alas & Alack, this is, afterall, the Age of Information, so I guess simple statement without the "road to--" won't do. So under several hundred (or, at least one) peers of pressure, here's the wheels to my mystery, "The Best/Worst CP": --so there. Feh! Best Nonfiction: _The Hacker Crackdown_ by B. Sterling --not only raw data, but a damned good writer's slant. Who else to write about the cyberpunks but one of the guys who made us up in the first place? Worst Nonfiction: _Mondo's Guide to the New Edge_ --Stylish zammin' and zippin', coastin' and speedin' bod but no brains (Rudy--sob--how could you?). Besides, man, hey got the number to the Cyberden--see below--WRONG!) Best Fiction: _Bad Voltage_ by Jonathan Littell --The coolest (far better than _Mona Lisa_)! Kids out for naught but kicks, bi-sexuality, skyrocket wargames in the sewers of Paris, the corp comes crashing at the end, but it ain't "Let's save the world" but "Fuck you, rich kid!". Recommended! Worst Fiction: _Johnny Zed_ by John Gregory Betancourt --Naught but cover-to-cover line noise with cute cover art. Bleh! Best Invention: Mac Powerbooks --Portable, user-friendly, CD-ROM, 8/80, fax/modem in your briefcase. Worst Invention: Mac Powerbooks --LCD screen. Ever try to do anything serious? Best Flick: _WAX - or The Discovery of Television Among the Bees_ & _The Falls_ --I love trips through other folk's disturbed psyches. More Dick that CP, both are better than Hollywood's "acceptable" view of a CP century (save _Blade_ but everyone puts THAT one on their lists!). Worst Flick: _The Lawnmower Man_ --Do you _have_ to ask why? Best 'zine: bOING-bOING, 2600 (tie) --BB for the creative, 2600 for the anal pros Worst 'zine: MONDO 2000 --body of death, brains of a road-kill. Whoever thought CP could be stupid? Best Drug: The new Acid --You can fuck and come on it. Worst Drug: X --You can't fuck and come on it. Best Tune: "Even Better Than The Real Thing" U2 & "Free Your Mind" En Vogue --ZOO TV. They, dudes, I think they might be getting it. Black plastic, cornball VR, give 'em a few years and they might just be hip enough to be CP cool. En Vogue: I like 'em black ladies, dey make me so horny-- Worst Tune: Anything by U2 after the Negitiveland suit --the lawyers and suits for the The Rock n' Roll Ethnic Rebels( (Irish line) thought they might loose candy money over the haha's of our local boys. Brought out the big guns and squashed de little guys flat. Somebody crash those fucker's accounting records-- Best Corporate Moment: Desert Storm --Brought to you buy General Electric. We make great refrigerators, too. Worst Corporate Moment: Donald Trump & Ivan Bosky (tie) --"PAY NO ATTENTION TO THOSE MEN BEHIND THE LOGOS!" Best Punk Moment: The LA Revolution --"Three meals, one day without power, and a moment captured on tape--away from Revolution! Worst Punk Moment: The Negitiveland suit --ibid Best Hack Moment: Decrypting AGRIPPA --Okay, an over-the-counter (the real best is the stuff you don't see except for the scalp waving in the air). But cool, none-the-less. Bummer was that it took so damned long-- Worst Hack Moment: Snitching during "Operation Sun Devil" --Guys in suits. Knock, knock--and will do anything not to share a cell with a Hells Angel. Best Program: "Beyond Cyperpunk" --Major suck-up. Me wanna work on the sequel stack! Worst Program: Windows --Go buy a fuckin' Mac! Best Event: The Ministry at Lalapaloosa --Full of sound, fury, lights, tech, signifying something (I guess). But still soooo cool. Worst Event: Gay-bashing at Lalapaloosa --I have seen the future and it is mean, nasty, and stupid. Best Sex: The new S/M --there was this sweet little Mistress, and what we didn't have was quite sex, but, still, quite, quite QUITE HOT! Worst Sex: Hep A, B, & C* --*Easier to catch than the red ribbon, no remedy, kills faster. Best Future Culture Discussion: Is it or isn't it W. Gibson? And who cares? --IT'S REALLY HIM. IT'S REALLY HIM. Okay, okay, it MIGHT REALLY BE HIM! Worst Future Culture Discussion: AUtopia -- will there be punks in paradise? --Utopias make me nervous. Who makes the rules? Barely-surviving & being-independant makes for some hard-edge choices/decisions. I perfer to live in the cracks, in my own weird world, than start to act like a Heinlein hero. Best Personality: P'Orridge --"Wanna see my modified genitalia?" Worst Personality: Sandra Bernhardt --Is she or isn't she gay/straight/bi? Who cares? For certain: SHE'S A PRICK! tha-tha-that's all folks! Verge !!!!!!!!!!!!! Pere Ubu sez: "Surrealism au service de la revolution!" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Verge sez: "Got me if it's right or not. Looks cool. You get the gist, and I stole it from Kadrey" __________________________________________________________________________ | / |\ | H E \ Y B E R |/ E N [ verge@cyberden.sf.ca.us ] ______________________________ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 93 01:31:07 -0800 From: salsbury@netcom.com (The Butterfly) ->Isn't there a slight disanvatage chosing such a ship to hold a ->off-shore colony? Price? I mean, a used battle ship might be sold for ->$1, but I don't expect cruise ships to be the same... - -Could very well be the case. I wonder if a battle ship being sold for a -dollar would have restrictions as to who could purchase it. That is the case, to my knowledge. When they do sales of that nature, it's usually a private sale to a certain group. (Most likely, a government supported scrapyard, getting kickbacks.) NY State bought the Shoreham nuclear plant about 4 years ago for $1 from the NY Power Authority. Private sale. (If it wasn't, I would be writing you from inside my own nuke plant, 'cause I figured it was worth at LEAST 2 dollars! ;^) ) Pat ______________________________Think For Yourself_______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury 1800 Market Street #23, San Francisco, CA 94102 Voice: 415/703-7177 ______________________________ From: ahawks (salvador dali on x) Subject: Re: your mail Date: Sat, 16 Jan 93 11:22:49 MST It's time for me to catch up on the list after viewing it with only one eye, which is half-closed, for the past week.... PS: I graduated high school yesteray...finally made it thru.... New fresh-scented *Scotto* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | |>LSD is illegal, and there are valid reasons, IMHO, for its |>being illegal - it is dangerous, if used by the wrong people at the |>wrong place and time..... | |Don't want to be pedantic here, but let's remember, a pillow is dangerous if |used by the wrong people at the wrong time. But I still like to have one |around occasionally. That is completely true....Living in itself is dangerous, and we could all die at any second...Oops, I just spilled Coke iside my open CPU....hey look at all the pretty blue sparks....hey, what's that wierd feeling going up my fingers and toes, and.....Zzzzzzzzzzzzz. |>I mean, they could've gone |>to John Lilly, which would've had all of Iowa up in arms about the |>resurgance of acid since it turns you into "one a dem freaks".... | |Not all of Iowa. Not even most of Iowa, since most of Iowa probably didn't |bother to watch. This is the second list this week, by the way, that's taken |shot at Iowa. What did we do all of a sudden? What about all the good things |we produce, like one half of every Crispix you eat? Hehe, there's lots of cool irony in that most of the country doesn't give Iowa too much credit for hipness, yet, as far as the Internet is concerned, Iowa is the psychedelics capital of the world....!! It's easy to forget about geography, though, in cspace.... |>I was, of course, glad to see Leary on there, and at the time I was |>thinking "good for them - it would've been so easy to interview |>someone along the lines of Art Linketter's perspective in this |>segment"... | |I dunno, these days Leary is an iffy proposition. He seems frazzled of late, |and if an interviewer caught him on a bad day, it could wreak havoc, or look |silly, or some such... | |>And take a visit down to any adolescent unit of any psych |>hospital these days - they're all filled with kids, 15-18, who've |>tripped in the vacinity of 100-500 times), the 500-time tripper, I |>couldn't believe him....I mean, he's got trails and visuals every so |>often..My question for him is: AREN'T YOU USED TO IT BY NOW?!?! | |Have you taken this visit and checked? I'd be interested in actual data on |this. I hear this all the time, that the psych wards are filled with people |who tried LSD and flipped out, and how drug counsellors say it's fraught with |danger, etc., but of course, the only people drug counsellors get to counsel |are those that do flip out, since the millions who don't aren't interested in |talking to counsellors about the good times they're having... Well, from personal experience, a large perentage of psychiatric hospital's adolescent units (at least here in Colorado) are filled with teenagers who trip a lot...A *lot*, as in watch out Tim Leary...Of course, most are not in the hospital out of their own willingness...It's not like "Hey, mom and dad, I've got something to tell you. This past year, just about every time I've talked to you I've been on drugs. Please take me to a hospital cuz I need help."... It's more like the parents get suspicious of any kid who hangs around the wrong crowd and gets bad grades, so "they must be on drugs" and end up in Columbine or Bethesda (the 2 local biggies as far as psych hosp.'s go)..And when you end up in teh psych hospital, you just can't "fake yer way through it", like everyone says they do....That's crap...You're around psychiatrists, psychologists, and counsellors 24 hrs a day, and you're also around a group of kids who're going through the same stuff, and the combination of those different people makes it impossible to not tell the truth, or to just passs the time... And from personal experience, most counsellors in hospitals, and a fair percentage of psychologists (my own at least and friends' psychologists) are open-minded individuals, many are ex-hippies or new-agers or existentialists or have a keen interest in abnormal psych. or were druggies themselves in high school, and thus aren't going to give into the "just say no" philoso-false.... For exAmple, I was in a psych hospital for a variety of reasons from November of 91 to March of 92...When I talked to my psychologist about acid, he seemed all for it, but he said "I don't want you using it now. Not now, there'll be many other chances in the future." (at the time I was on Prozac and depressed and suicidal, so, of course he was right about not using it then...) |>very very tiny percentage of people who use LSD do not recover from |>the temporary psychosis it induces. | |Dig: LSD does not induce "temporary psychosis". This is leftover propaganda |from the sixties, when psychedelics were actually called "psychotomimetics," |meaning literally, "inducing psychosis" or some such. That term was coined |*specifically* to scare people away from the stuff. Until actual research get |*completed*, we don't know much, but we *do* know it isn't psychosis. Fun |fact: didja know it's now legal in Switzerland to use LSD in limited |psychiatric therapy? Yeehah! Hmm...But there are some definite similarities between tripping and psychosis....For example, the inconsistent flow of time...Ever noticed how most first-timers look at their watch constantly? Ever seen anyone with a multiple personality disorder? they both do the same thing, for the same reasons.....MPD isn't considered a psychoses, I don't believe, just a coping mechanism to prevent insanity, so maybe the effects of LSD are just the mind's way of coping with it's use... As far as legalization in switzerland for psychiatric terapy, I'm all for that, and think it's a shame we don;t have that available in the US.... Some people will go so far as to say LSD is the doorway to the evolution of consciousness, the next step, so it's a shame that fear and misunderstandings keep us away from exploring the vast unknown... I thik we're so far away from legalizIng it, tho.... Look at pot... The legalization of hemp is obviously gaining ground from where it stood in the recent-past, but it is still only popular among people who have an interest in drug culture, the masses in Kansas (instead of Iowa =) are probably a long way away from accepting the realities that hemp has many uses in clothes, paper, etc., and marijuana has medicinal uses...Yet, the Kansas-public (the American masses) perceive pot as a dangerous drug..."hey, if it's illegal, it must be bad." ObFutCult: will America ever re-legalize any hallucinogenic drugs beyond just religious or psychiatric or medicinal use? What's gonna happen if ketamine gets popular in high schools in Kansas????? -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Date: 16 Jan 1993 16:11:49 -0600 (CST) From: Scotto >Hmm...But there are some definite similarities between tripping and >psychosis.... Similarities in surface effect, I would admit, but for the vast majority of people who take LSD, the fact is, they're gonna *come down*. It's a drug; it wears off. The reason people take the drug is to experience feelings and thoughts that are outside of their everyday reality, and I guess if I consider a psychotic to be outside of everyday reality, there's some similarity. But *all* of this is from the point of view of Person C, one who watches a tripper, watches a psychotic, and says, "Hurm, they look similar to me." To the two individuals having the experience, however, I'll bet the dichotomy is quite clear. The tripper remembers consensus reality and is assured of returning there; the psychotic is not assured of anything. That's a very important distinction, and that's the reason I don't like to see surface comparisons to psychosis -- it amounts to reinforcing negative propaganda that is pretty much unfounded in the first place... ______________________________ From: arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Arthur Chandler) Subject: Biosphere flop Date: Sat, 16 Jan 93 15:01:29 PST Did anyone else here read the latest glitch to the Arizona biosphere project? Seems that the oxygen content of their air got pretty low, and they had to pipe in some fresh stuff. Since the conditions of "complete enclosure" have now been violated several times (once because someone cut his or her finger!), what's the point of continuing, unless it's just a PR or advertising stunt -- ? ______________________________ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 93 16:05:30 PST From: Michael Ney Subject: Re: Biosphere flop Gee Arthur - I wouldn't write such a worthwhile project off quite that easily. Teething problems is what i'd call it. Give 'em a chance please! BTW - are they on the net here? ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ Michael Ney -> EMAIL: visionary@peg.apc.org Visionary Media -> USA: vrxaus@igc.apc.org PO Box 566, Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia -> VOICE: (+61-2) 692-8168 ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ >> In cyberspace your voice is a visible declaration of life! << ______________________________ From: ahawks (max legroom) Subject: Re: your mail Date: Sat, 16 Jan 93 18:13:27 MST New fresh-scented *Scotto* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | |>Hmm...But there are some definite similarities between tripping and |>psychosis.... | |Similarities in surface effect, I would admit, but for the vast majority of |people who take LSD, the fact is, they're gonna *come down*. It's a drug; it |wears off. The reason people take the drug is to experience feelings and |thoughts that are outside of their everyday reality, and I guess if I consider |a psychotic to be outside of everyday reality, there's some similarity. But |*all* of this is from the point of view of Person C, one who watches a tripper |watches a psychotic, and says, "Hurm, they look similar to me." To the two |individuals having the experience, however, I'll bet the dichotomy is quite |clear. The tripper remembers consensus reality and is assured of returning |there; the psychotic is not assured of anything. That's a very important |distinction, and that's the reason I don't like to see surface comparisons to |psychosis -- it amounts to reinforcing negative propaganda that is pretty much |unfounded in the first place... Well, I deeply respect your opinions about LSD, cuz obviously you're one of the most outspoken people on the net about it, but, I've found myself too easily caught up in pro-drug hysteria (that's a bold word, and I should probably use one somewhat softer) just as easily as the majority of the public gets caught up in anti-drug hysteria, thus, I try to balance out my viewpoints and perspectives, and clear away the trails, just as easy as I clear away the Just-say-no bumper stickers. I only have personal knowledge of one case in which LSD contributed to, or possibly induced, or at the very least had some minor role, in a psychosis that is seemingly permanent. This was told to be second-hand by a counsellor in the psych hospital I was in. The counselor was not anti-drug, and I'm pretty sure she had a t leat experimented with LSD in the past, though she couldn't say so. At any rate, she had this other patient, this lady, who apparently suffered from MPD or some form of schizophrenia, which LSD use apparentlywas a factor in contributing to. At any rate, urban legends aside, I think the facts are (don't quyote me) that less than 1 in 100 people who use LSD suffer any negative side effects, so obviously for a majority of people there will be no harm done. But that doesn't excuse the millions of people, especiay teenagers, who go out and trip without having researched into it - it's history, it's culture, it's chemistry. Those are the type of people prone to wigging that would blame the drug when they tried to jump out a window or something. It's not the fault of the drug, it's the fault of your mind, and it's your own conscious fault for not knowing what you're getting into. This is why I don't support the full legalization of LSD. If it was available to psychiatrists, that would be ok with me, but if it is to become legal to the degree that say alcohol is, then, odds are you're going to only have more societal problems. I go to a school (err, just graduated) where 98% of the students had at one time or another gotten drunk, ie used alcohol irresponsibly. 20% of seniors drink regularly, every weekend. The school has roughly 2500 kids, 650 in the senior class, so that means 130 kids drink regularly, that means you have 130 potential killers out there, considering everyone pretty much drives to parties on the weekends, and believe me, I wouldn't consider teenage alcohol use responsible. If we are to extrapolate and say that these numbers would be similar for LSD, we might lower it a bit and say that maybe 100 or so would trip regularly (that's pretty much how it already is, anyway - LSD was a lot more popular among my friends than alcohol was), and then you'd have 1 person wig out every year. ______________________________ From: my! So this would have detrimental effects on, like, the workforce for one. If you're tripping out every weekend, your desire to go back to work on Monday morning, I'd guess, would be lessenned ten-fold. Also, if everyone tripped out on Saturday nite, probably not too many people would even get a good nite's rest on Sunday nite. You'd probly rather sit home and write philosophy or paint or write poems, and work becomes a sidebar. But the reailty is that we live in a world where work is a necessity for sustaining a descent existence, because ultimately our lives are constrained by the extent of the rest of society's existence. It would be lovely if we lived in an Eden or Nirvana or Utopia where people's creative energies surpass all, and everyone just sits around an sings, dances, reads poetry, philosophizes, and everything and everyone is equal. This is what I see the country struggling to achieve if LSD becomes legal, and the fact is that somewhere along the line harsh reality rears it's head, and we are forced to own up to the fact that the real objective world needs people to work, needs at least some people to not use LSD or other similar enlightening substances, needs at least some people to experience time on a consistent linear mode. When I get in this conversations with my friends, we always come to the conclusion that there's a lot of people who trip that feel that they're ready to evolve in some way, whether it's the mind, or the collective unconscious, or what have you. A lot of trippers and users of other hallucinogenic and psychedelic substances tend to feel this way as well (Altered States, of course, was based on that - Hurt's character's evolution was the search for a de-evolution into a primordial energy). I think that those energies ultimately exist within us all to varing degrees. And there's times when I myself have said "geez, can't we just evolve and get on with it". However, we need to look at if society as a whole is ready to evolve or not, and I don't think it is. And I don't think we could accomplish that just by everyone taking LSD. I think this evolution is going to come on both an objective and subjective plane. Many LSD users will tell you they've evolved subjectively, but objectivity is a communal subjectivity, and I don't thik objective reality is ready to make some leap forward. As far as objective reality is concrned, I think we're all the slaves of linear time and space, and I think that right now that is inescapable. Oh shit, I'm clicking into McKenna mode. I betetr stop now. Anyway, to sum up, let me just say that LSD has a realistic downside for some perentage of the population. Some people *might* go psycho, some might not be able to deal with the after efects, some might have negative flashbacks (on a sidebar to that, I personally find after effects like auditory and visual hallucinations to be self-induced, ie, you hav some control over them on some level. Occasionally you come across a person who'll look like they're tripping and you say "are you tripping" and they say "no, I'm just putting mysel in trip mode", and meanwhile faces are popping out of the ceiing or the carpet for that person, and they're letting themselves hallucinate - letting their unconscious mind come out". So, umm, if anyone replies to this, I'd especially be interested in people's opinions regarding evolution and psychedelics. -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Date: 16 Jan 1993 19:47:02 -0600 (CST) From: Scotto >New fresh-scented *Scotto* (150% real fruit juices!) says: First of all, let me point out that I've recently eliminated caffeine from my diet, and am now approaching 175 to 200% real fruit juices. >Well, I deeply respect your opinions about LSD, cuz obviously you're >one of the most outspoken people on the net about it, "Outspoken" rarely translates into "wellspoken." Hope I can work on that... >but, I've found >myself too easily caught up in pro-drug hysteria (that's a bold word, >and I should probably use one somewhat softer) just as easily as the >majority of the public gets caught up in anti-drug hysteria, thus, I >try to balance out my viewpoints and perspectives, and clear away the >trails, just as easy as I clear away the Just-say-no bumper stickers. Agreed completely. I want to eliminate as much of the misinformation from *both* sides as possible. Some trippers will tell you that taking LSD is a piece of cake; it isn't, not for the majority of people. If you can take significant doses of LSD regularly without any strain on your psyche, you're lucky. There are considerable pros and considerable cons to be weighed. My only point in this instance is that, considering all that we do and don't know about LSD, comparing it to psychosis is at this point in the research still unwarrented. >I only have personal knowledge of one case in which LSD contributed >to, or possibly induced, or at the very least had some minor role, in >a psychosis that is seemingly permanent. Right; nobody said this wasn't possible. *IF* LSD were legal, I posit there *might* be less instances of this... >But that doesn't excuse the millions of people, especiay >teenagers, who go out and trip without having researched into it - >it's history, it's culture, it's chemistry. I don't want to argue legalization here; you're right, it's a terribly complex issue, I'd only point out that how can these kids meaningfully research it when respected scientists can't meaningfully research it? There is, finally, scientific reserach going on again in this country, but you can bet the results will be filtered through the governmental propaganda machine, at least in regards to the general, non-Internet-connected public. >This is why I don't support the full legalization of LSD. If it was >available to psychiatrists, that would be ok with me, but if it is to >become legal to the degree that say alcohol is, then, odds are you're >going to only have more societal problems. Very good point. Tim Leary wanted LSD "centers," where one could be "trained" to use the drug and given a sort of "liscense," just as, when we turn 21, we are "liscensed" to buy alcohol. But I also wonder about the true extent of these societal problems; LSD is not beer, it is not for everyone, and I've met quite a few people who've tried it and won't take it again, after weighing all the options. And what about substances like MDMA, DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, etc...? I'm not sure I believe that, say, ketamine will ever replace alcohol as the party drug of choice. >If we are to extrapolate >and say that these numbers would be similar for LSD, we might lower >it a bit and say that maybe 100 or so would trip regularly (that's >pretty much how it already is, anyway - LSD was a lot more popular >among my friends than alcohol was), and then you'd have 1 person wig >out every year. Frankly, this seems acceptable to me. Alcohol is considerably more dangerous than that. Your comments about the negative effects to the work force should LSD be legalized are well put. Obviously a balance is going to have to arrive somewhere. The issue for me is not so much that my favorite drugs are illegal, but that my freedom is being curtailed. (Anyway, when we all work in cyberspace, har, the dimensions of the problem will change all over again.) >When I get in this conversations with my friends, we always come to >the conclusion that there's a lot of people who trip that feel that >they're ready to evolve in some way, whether it's the mind, or the >collective unconscious, or what have you. I really used to believe that, back in my (much more) outspoken days. I've mellowed on that, however. It's not enough for the mind/collective unconscious to just up and evolve, because we as humans are not just mind/collective unconscious. We are a holistic unit comprised of a body made of cells with its own urges, needs, and agenda, and *that* stuff has to be ready to evolve right along with it. You mention Terence McKenna; are you familiar with his rap about how psilocybin muchrooms influenced early evolution? >However, we >need to look at if society as a whole is ready to evolve or not, and I >don't think it is. And I don't think we could accomplish that just by >everyone taking LSD. I agree; things would fall apart if everyone took LSD. At least, if they all took it all the time... >So, umm, if anyone replies to this, I'd especially be interested in >people's opinions regarding evolution and psychedelics. Well, I'm sure you knew that *I* at least would reply. :) If you're familiar with McKenna's notion of the Singularity (or, as Leri-L calls it, Orgasm 2012), then I think it's safe to say that psychedelics will certainly play a role in that transformation, no more or less important a role than that of cyberculture, politics, etc. I don't want to attribute more importance to pyschedelics than necessary, however. They are my kind of fun; I've demonstrated my "competence", if you will; I have a right to them. fun stuff... _________________________________________________________________________ | | | That's all for today! | | To send a message to the list: future@nyx.cs.du.edu | | To subscribe/unsubscribe/change format: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | All other requests: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | List Maintainer is: (andy [aka hawkeye]) ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu | |_________________________________________________________________________| | | | The opinions expressed in FutureCulture are those of the individual | | author only. | |_________________________________________________________________________|