From - Wed Jan 14 17:16:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mrco.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA02151; Thu, 18 Feb 93 19:42:09 EST Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA08664; Thu, 18 Feb 93 19:33:35 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17322; Thu, 18 Feb 93 17:30:29 MST From: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (andy) Message-Id: <9302190030.AA17322@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: FutureCulture Digest #242 To: future-digest@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 17:30:28 MST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Status: RO X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 ______________________________________________________________________ |______________ / | | / | | u t u r e <___________ u l t u r e | _______________________________________________________________________| Issue #242 Thursday, February 18th 1993 Today's Topics: --------------- is message the Medium Re: Musakal list de lists r3: /\/\3[>|u/\/\ |z +|-|/-\ /\/\3$$/-\g3 Re: r3: /\/\3[>|u/\/\ |z +|-|/-\ /\/\3$$/-\g3 Re: Farming, Cities and W Re: Medium is the massage Womack interview SNAFU __________________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1993 13:47:33 -0500 From: Subject: Womack interview SNAFU Re the Jack Womack interview: somehow it got chopped in half... sorry, people. For the complete text take a look on the alt.cyberpunk FTP (ftp.washington.edu, in /public/alt.cyberpunk). Darren Wershler-Henry ______________________________ From: ahawks (pinkerton floyd) Subject: is message the Medium Re: Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 12:33:05 MST Juhani Luhtanen, not Bob, says: | |"Medium is the Massage" | - Marxhall McLuhan | |I just re-read Agrippa and it occurred to me that the poem has now been |published in 3 different mediums with 3 different contexts. THe first |one is the floppy extravaganza with the paintings; the second was the |radio reading; and the third the dubious and illegal net release. re: radio roading... hope to god you're not refer-ing to the NPR thing. It wasn't read, they just talked about it. Saying it was going to be released and what it was. re: "dubious" and "illegal" net release. Well, shit, if it was illegal, most of us would be in jail for plagurism and violating copyrights. It may be illegal, but what difference does that make, especially when gibson himself was *hoping*|*praying*|*wishng* it would spread across the net. So, it wasn't on radio, and the net.thing was No Big Deal, IMHO. The only Big Deal about it was te name attached to the poem, and the fact that it was one of the first notable giant leaps. Yet, Bruce Sterling is releasing Hacker Crackdown on to the net, OBI and Gutenberg, et al. make you wanna say whoopdy-doo.poo. |Agrippa is as a work of art literature and it could be published as |other literary works usually are: in print. I do not want plunge deeply |into the content of Agrippa but stick to the methods and means how a |piece of text reaches the reader. you're hitting the nail on the head, but, IMHO it's already been hammered. we talked about all this even *before* Agrippa came out, mostly on alt.cp...does anybody remember that? I myself remember posting PRIOR to it's release that no matter what the poem is like as a poem (needless to say that as a poet myself i strongly subscribe to a poem should not mean but be) that the fact that it's on the net is the most important part, (medium~=message), and, then when it came out it wasn't as good, i thought, as i would've hoped in terms of artistry, and then i fell back to the mcluhanisms....see, i'm just studly... ;) |The official release is not very interesting in terms of the medium. I |think that Gibson & co. just made a nice publicity stunt and the whole |thing is going to be a curiosioty in the history of American Lit. in the |future and a thing that lit. professors use as an entertaining exam |question. aargh, it's *NOT* as trivial as you relegate it to, i don't think. i've said this before, and [prev.], but i liken it to something like cave drawings. noone remembers the first few folx to draw on the caves, right? and that's what we're all doing here. but then you may so, "no, that's crap, because the technology allows for everything to be recorded with name/date/blahblah" and yeah, it does, but we have proven, so far, as to be incabable of moving from a linear to spacial mindstyle in coping with the seemingly logrhythmic (sp?) expansion of communications and technology, thus we'll find ourselves on the oppositie end of the spectrum (relatively) from the cave walls. not too little clear information, but too much, so that lots of schtuph [thanks freeside, or whoever it was on irc] gets lost. also. *boing!* we think cave drawings are pretty inane and primal and insert-roget-here [base, that's the word]. but soon, and certainly not 100,000 years or whatever, more like maybe 10-100, possibly, the ent will look like a cave drawing, because we wil l have developed new priorities for information organization as we evolve towards an infonomic post-post-industrial world [sorry for the pomo implications there ;) ]. |The radio release was interesting in a way that it brought poetry back |to its origins: oral performance. Then again there is nothing new to |that. Ever since the beginning of radio broadcasting history poems have |been read out loud on the radio. did you hear this release? at any rate, i do agree, radio is the best specific cyberspace medium for poetry right now. |The net release was far more interesting and brought many questions that |are vital for the whole matrix. Poetry has always been considered as |oral art. Even the traditional view shares this opinion (my lit. |teacher). In a way everything I read in my mailbox and in usenet news is |also alive. The language of the net is not written neither spoken but in |a peculiar way fall between those two languages. The net (or matrix) is |literally alive it produces new text everyday. rather we produce it and it affects us which affects how we produce it, etc. ie, more like a sine wave then an amoeba. (sp?) |It is impossible to |approach this feeding in the same way as printed literature. The net |user is forced to adopt new strategies and those strategies resemble the |ones we use when we receive oral info. that seems kinda contradictory. first you say it's Extra Value Combo, and then you hush-hush the printed side with extra cheeze =). at any rate, whatever strategies are developed are morphs of earlier strategies, and the increased communitek *BOING!* bun-chak *BING!* neologism alert up there, i'm actually proud of that one. kind of like community, actually it's communit-e [ie virtual comms.] + tek, communitek. Spread the meme. Wow, see, I'm such a stud ;), i can operate on both the meta- level and within the bounds of the topic, and exemplify what's being discussed On the Spot. And, yes! yes! I can still engage in Shameless Self Promo at the same time....I am BMON. (or rather, BMOI, that sounds cool, another neologism alert, cuz it has moi in it, so there's still that subtle self-referencing) |I would like to know if I was the only one who felt that W. Gibson was |really 'performing' the poem on my display when I read it for the first |time. I didn't feel that way. I felt like I was reading a poem that a guy on MindVox transcribed. Agr1ppa, however, is a different story. THAT is e-art. Agrippa is only art. |I haven't yet printed the poem because that would be like changing |the whole piece into something which it is not. So? who's setting the rules here? Information wants to be free, right? so print it out, rip it up, print it out again.....Put it in emacs, or better yet make a shell script, and randomly reorganize the lines [e.g. Paco-esque]. Insert your own verses. Post 50 copies to alt.cyberpunk.... E-poetic terrorism, a la Bey. This is e-art. But it is moot relative to how PKK has morphed and reconstructed Agrippa. So, buddumpbum, then you work on Agr1ppa.... ^ live hypereal, do the above. And don't do what I've said, do your own, *re*construct my ideas. |As if I would record |only the soundtrack of a film and then listen to the sound only and |forget about the visual images. aargh, finishes off a decent post by parallelogramming back to the mediums of the past. boo, hiss. send in the next victim! don't make parallels to outdated to uninteractive relative outdated communiteks. |Juhani |-- |.signature ????? did you really expect a Sheesh. .signature? |.signature ????? Sheesh. .signature? a expect really you did |.signature ????? did you Sheesh. .signature? a expect really |.signature ????? did you really Sheesh. .signature? a expect |.signature ????? did you really expect a .signature? Sheesh. |.signature ????? did Sheesh. .signature? a expect really you |.signature ????? did you really expect Sheesh. .signature? a [sort it out, it's a puzzle, but, what isn't] the innocent phun gamez of the [insert your fav label here] generation .out there -- andy ______________________________ From: ahawks (pinkerton floyd) Subject: Re: Medium is the massage Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 12:47:15 MST John Frost, not Bob, says: | |Did I feel W. Gibson was performing Agrippa on my screen? Nope! I felt |that the minute the first copy was read/sold it left his hands and entered |the domain of electronic/net history. It was 'performed' within this |context. it is a new kind of performance art. |Some what astride of the performance, I have been noticing with increasing |frequency the use of the word "Agrippa" in our culture. Sure it was |probably there before, but it's sort of the same thing as seeing the |fnords. For instance, the bar in the lastest release of Kung Fu. is |called Agrippa, Umberto Eco used the word at least a half a dozen times in |his book "Foucault's Pendulum." and I seem to recall the appearance of |Agrippa in a TICK comic book. What does it mean? Maybe nothing... but it |interested me anyway. no, it means your senses were closed to some memes [aargh, i don't want to use that word here, but...] beforehand. |A final, and perhaps most important note: I have compiled a 1500 line zine |documenting the discussion which took place on the future-culture list |during the few weeks following the release of Agrippa, the poem, to the |net. It has been edited to provide anonymity to everyone but |net-personalities. However, if someone were able to find another log with |addresses intact, it wouldn't be that difficult to trace you down. I also |removed the actual Poem, this was not so much to avoid copyright |infraction, as to avoid it's release in non-electronic form (printed). |Call me sentimental. =) definitely sentimental. |This is your chance to voice opposition, support or indiference, toward my |releasing this via SPUNK PRESS. I can't promise I'll listen to a few |voices, but overwhelming opposition might change my mind or cause futher |edits to occur... i don't see the point, but i don't see a problem. if i was on the enterprise and i just ate an apple i wouldn't have the replicator clone me another apple. |It is mostly interesting stuff and each time I re-read the posts I grok |something new.... I hope you read it again, when it comes out. ah! ok, i see now. fuck the cloning analogy then, it doesn't work. maybe, if i just ate an apple, and then barfed up the apple in-tact as a wholee, then i'd be hungry again cuz i just barfed, so i'd eat the barf-apple. ok sounds good, i'm hungry for barfed apples. so snowman, do you have anorex-e-a? hmm, i should probably define that new neologism..... anorex-e-a....person who regroks past e-schtuph. ie, someone who uses 'P' in rn at the article level, has a saved mailbox, keeps logs, etc. ;) |snowman () frost@netcom.com | X-( )-X | ( ) PEACE! | |_ |_ HAPPY BIRTHDAY happy, happy birthday to me, happy birthday to me, and to you i've come to wish you an unhappy birthday cuz you're evil and you lie OK, EVERYBODY, LIE DOWN ON THE FLOOR AND KEEP CALM [see if you can sync to my subconscious referencing here, tune in to me!] -- andy ______________________________ From: ahawks (pinkerton floyd) Subject: r3: /\/\3[>|u/\/\ |z +|-|/-\ /\/\3$$/-\g3 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 13:10:16 MST Mark Baldwin, not Bob, says: | |a question which probably shows my age [?]: | |how doez one pronounce agr1ppa? pleaze explain where i can |find this information instead of flaming, if it exists some |where... | |-mArK. well, you can obviously e-pronounce it, do you really need to pronounce it? how do u say..........31|+3...... [that is a real word, btw] usually the 1 is an l, like in k-k001.....k-k001 is cool sarcasm.... ie, B1FF is k-k001.....00's are o's....3's are e's....+'s are t's.... |'s can be i's.....[> |> |) can all be d's....|) can be p, when (| is q...|< is k....>| is e-dyslexia....$ is s, esp. when refer-ing to compu$erve... ! can by i's or l's.....@ is a, sometimes even @narch-e... # used to be E, i think, or soething, but I don't see that 1... * is O in different cyber-dialects...[ is c in dialect 2, err too... \/\/ is w, /\/\ is m.../-\ is a, |-| is h, |3 is b, |_ can be l, but that's |_/-\/\/\3.....|\| is n, |\|||/| is trendy music... \/ is v, ob\/iously....>< is x....z is often = s (warez), e is often = a (tha), c is often = k (|<-|<001), f = ph (phun), ph = f (fone)... it's just |<001 31|+3 pc for the |) ( generation. | most of this died c. 84-85, but B1FF and k001 survive for god gnows why. 0|<, |\|0\/\/ |<|[>[>|3Z g0 & s3+ ^ a|\| 31|+3 ph|1+3r. ^ really obscure cave drawings. -- andy ______________________________ From: ahawks (E) Subject: Musakal list de lists Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 13:58:57 MST Anybody know where I could get the list of musical e-lists file? or if someone has one lying around, could you forward it to me? thanx.... -- andy ______________________________ Subject: Re: Farming, Cities and W From: david.brooks@cutting.hou.tx.us (David Brooks) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 14:46:00 -0600 HZ> In a previous post: HZ> {begin quote} HZ> About the Agriculture + Civilization => Large Scale Conflict HZ> thesis: HZ> I agree, but you also might want to consider the fact that cities have HZ> a HZ> greater population than hunting-gathering tribes, partially because HZ> agriculture HZ> can support a larger population base than nomadic existence. After all, HZ> it's hard to have large-scale conflict when we're talking about small HZ> groups of tribesmen. Of course, large-scale conflict usually arises HZ> when HZ> resources become scarce, and, I believe you touched on this, when HZ> resources HZ> become rare, hunter-gatherers can always move on. HZ> {end quote} HZ> Yeah, that's pretty much the point. Another theory is that agriculture HZ> and cities developed out of necessity - due to an expansion in HZ> population, HZ> it no longer became as practical to move on out, and the only feasible HZ> way HZ> of feeding the population was to form permanent agriculture systems. HZ> Which HZ> in turn, lumps people in one place, which in turn, makes cities, which HZ> in HZ> turn causes the population to expand at a greater rate, and inspires HZ> diversification of labor, which in turn causes the necessity of more HZ> agriculture....A nice little feedback loop. HZ> -Zamboni Precisely. The Agricultural Revolution was a direct result of an increasing population. The imperitive to "go forth and multiply" may be at the root of a lot of this stuff.... David * Q-Blue v0.7 [NR] * ---- +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | The Cutting Edge BBS (cutting.hou.tx.us) A PCBoard 14.5a system | | Houston, Texas, USA +1.713.466.1525 running uuPCB | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ ______________________________ Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 14:20:43 PST From: mark@ganymede.apple.com (Mark Baldwin) Subject: Re: r3: /\/\3[>|u/\/\ |z +|-|/-\ /\/\3$$/-\g3 ()|<...| |<11||Da |)1(|<=D |_|P oN +Ha+...| _|u$+ \/\/Az|/|'+ $|_|r3 1|= 1+ \/\/uZ +h3 $a/\/\3... -/\/\ / |~ |<. _________________________________________________________________________ | | | That's all for today! | | To send a message to the list: future@nyx.cs.du.edu | | To subscribe/unsubscribe/change format: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | All other requests: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | List Maintainer is: (andy [aka hawkeye]) ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu | |_________________________________________________________________________| | | | The opinions expressed in FutureCulture are those of the individual | | author only. | |_________________________________________________________________________|