From - Wed Jan 14 14:57:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mrco.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA20502; Tue, 2 Feb 93 01:31:28 EST Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA13043; Tue, 2 Feb 93 01:29:55 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07974; Mon, 1 Feb 93 23:30:14 MST From: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (andy) Message-Id: <9302020630.AA07974@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: FutureCulture Digest #207 To: future-digest@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Mon, 1 Feb 93 23:30:12 MST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-Length: 40281 X-Lines: 929 ______________________________________________________________________ |______________ / | | / | | u t u r e <___________ u l t u r e | _______________________________________________________________________| Issue #207 Monday, February 1st 1993 Today's Topics: --------------- cyberpunk goes mainstream AI, ALife, and Life in the InfoGlut AI, ALife, and Life in the InfoGlut (fwd) cyberculture Drug liberation in switzerland ? gays, lesbians, etc in sci fi/cyber scribbing GAYS, THE FUTURE, CYBERBIGOTS, ETC. (fwd) Hacking the Brainstim Hope you read it all.... Hope you read it all.... (fwd) It's showtime! MORE-ON MEDIA MORE-ON MEDIA (fwd) Population density and insanity Re: body modification Re: gays, lesbians, etc in sci fi/cyber scribbing Re: GAYS, THE FUTURE, CYBERBIGOTS, ETC. Re: GAYS, THE FUTURE, CYBERBIGOTS, ETC. (fwd) Re: hope you read it all Re: population density & insanity Re: Sexuality, homosexuality, Cyberpunk, Labels, the Meaning of Liff Re: Sexuality, homosexuality, Cyberpunk, Labels, the Meaning of Liff (fwd) Re:Tatooing/body implants take a chance on love the new flesh __________________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1993 12:33:25 +0600 (CST) From: Patrick McKee Subject: Hope you read it all.... (fwd) Michael asked me to forward this to the list. So here goes. Here it is Michael. The following is a short excerpt from Michael's post to me. peace... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Hi, Patrick. >Yes, I read it all. >Well, first off, cyberspace is amazing. Not only did I get replies from >far-flung places in what felt like a matter of minutes, but one of them >was from the originator of this whole thread. Wow. >And, of course, I thus face the uncomfortable realization that you are a >real person, and not just some icon to vent my (considerable, I admit) >anger on. The political becomes personal, across the world, in a matter >of minutes. Hum. >Well, to get to the point: Thank you. It was gracious of you to respond, >and >do so honestly. I appreciate that very much. Your gesture is the beginning >of what makes understanding - which leads to tolerance and respect - >possible. I *very much* recommend that you post it to the whole list! [some stuff is missing] >Yours, >Michael ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1993 21:04:51 +0600 (CST) From: Patrick McKee To: "Michael J. Current" Subject: Hope you read it all.... Hmmm...what does one say. It happened. I said it. Although your little idea about the in-utero implant was to, say the least, disturbing. To think that someone would even think of that (I know it was not you - but the german) is sickening. Some of what you said made sense. Not all, just some. As to anything else, oh well, it is, so there. I have since responded to many of the guys that e-mailed me back and have been thinking about my knee-jerk reaction to the original post. It was stupid. It was bigoted. It was...all of those things. I still feel the way I feel. I am sorry. I wish I could feel different. It has probably been conditioned into me. I fear that it would take a lot to get rid of it. I do not like being one of the conditioned masses, busily buying Kraft Mayo(tm) and Levi jeans. But I am. I am trying not to be as close-minded, perhaps that is why I joined this list. I don't really know why. It appealed to me. Maybe the future would be better than the past. I still don't know. I may never know. It does not look good. I am glad that you work counseling victims. Keep it up. Maybe it will help. peace p.s. About this list. I probably should try to find another home for me to stay at. I mean I really do not have anything in common with the guys and girls here, except that I was a computer guy in the seventies and a phone phreak, and was always a little controversial (long-haired hippy in a cow-patty town). But now I am mostly conservative and do not strive to be wierd anymore. I guess many years of wierdness took it out of me. I am 32. I have been through it all long ago. The drugs, the scene, the tuning in and turning on. I guess that I am yuppie. Going back to college cause it was in the way back then and now I need to advance and go further. So I will put it to you, Should I stay at FC? Or leave? Should I try to expand a little or get the fuck out? You decide. If you made it this far. If not I guess I will stay and just read the posts. Maybe something will happen and I will see "THE LIGHT". Either way I will refrain from imposing my e-mail again. Won't do me any good anyway. Once you are identified as one of those god-damn bigots, people just won't respond. ;-) I have been branded. hehehe. By the way you are right about SCI-FI and it's having promoted a freer sexual attitude. One of my fav authors was Heilein. And he was about the most extreme I got. Some of his stuff was quite wierd. Kinda hard to handle. But then it was fiction right? ---------------End Forwarded Part--------------- I don't know if this makes any sense or if I am just feeding the fire. But, I am trying to understand, so please bear with me. Thanks. (btw) I am wearing. Boots (yes cowboy), black levi's, red tee, and a ski vest, white socks. and yellow tinted wire shooters. boring huh? I just could not resist. *-] patrick (cybyr) [the one with serious foot in mouth disease] l8r ______________________________ From: Visceral Clamping Mechanism Subject: Re: GAYS, THE FUTURE, CYBERBIGOTS, ETC. Date: Mon, 1 Feb 93 11:29:22 PST I thought this would be of general interest to the list. Quoth "Michael J. Current" : >But the "classic" cyberpunk literature I have been trying to get >belately familiarly with seems deeply heterosexist. Gay people are not >condemned, they simply don't seem to exist in these visions of the future. One of the foremost tenets of writing is "Write what you know." Perhaps the leading writers of futuristic fiction don't have any experiences in the gay relationship dept, so they can't write about them convincingly, or they feel that it would complicate the story to the point where their original intent in telling it is obscured. Once of my main peeves with big-budget hollywood movies is that a lot of the time the "love interest" angle is simply tacked on the side to "complete the square." It adds nothing but length to picture. If you don't think there is enough gay cyber/future fiction available, you could try writing some. Don't say that it's not available at all, though; John Varley explores same-sex relationships in some detail, and Orson Scott Card gave it a very interesting treatment in "Songbird." I expect that Clinton's efforts to remove the ban on gays in the US military will start a wave of closet-outcomings, and after that happens, I suspect you will see more integration of gay/bi/lesbian culture into mass market entertainment, including CP fiction (despite the cries that the CP movement is dead. :) ) >And the recent posts here by [I've forgotten his name - the gay who spoke >out against ending the military ban] made it clear that a least some people >in this space are openly bigotted. Yeah, just like anywhere else. This list is big enough to be treated by statistical methods, and I'm sure we have a few tail bits on each side of the bell-shaped curve for whatever topic you pick. -- atman@rahul.net || "Burn hollywood burn!" "I hanker for a hunk of cheese." ______________________________ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1993 13:48:22 +0600 (CST) From: Patrick McKee Subject: Re: Sexuality, homosexuality, Cyberpunk, Labels, the Meaning of Liff On Sun, 31 Jan 1993, shrooooooooooms! wrote: > Michael Current - thanks for that well done post. I tried to respond, > found myself starting over many times saying to myself that whatever I > wanted to say, you had already pointed out. Yes, thanks... > Something I've been wanting to say about this for awhile, that will > probably draw large discussions: > > Some prominent sociologists hold to the theory that the more complex > society becomes, the more psychological dysfunctions/problems arise. > Agree or disagree? Are American talk shows example A?!?! (ie, every > American ytalk show seems to have 3 people with some new psychological > or psychosomatic problem, and then 1 "psychologist" who has just > "discovered" this problem and written a book about it....) I wrote this a while ago in response to the AUtopia thread. And the possibility of disorders in dense populations. It might apply some what. ------------------Forward------------------- I have to agree that some sort of alternative needs to be found. To just stay on board an isolated 'techno-troller' (tm) is going to be very difficult to say the least. There was a study done in the 1930's that linked mental illness to high density living conditions. I think the book's title was 'Mental Disorders and High Density Living' (I am not sure, but am trying to find out). The researchers broke down densly populated cities into zones and according to all their findings in high density living, aberrant behavior was rampant. The largest problem seemed to be alcoholism with schizophrenia running a close second. I think that this study should be taken into consideration when planning this type of community. [etc.......] > > -- > > ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation > ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu > ______________________________ From: gcrisp@st6000.sct.edu (Gregory Crisp) Subject: Hacking the Brainstim Date: Mon, 1 Feb 93 15:13:22 EST Any one interested in the subject of neural hacking, or who just want to read a good book by a cool science fiction writer, read _Snow Crash_ by Neil Stephenson. I give it two thumbs up. :) G Crisp -- PostHuman ver 3.1 ______________________________ From: fly@geog.buffalo.edu (Paul Fly) Subject: Re: GAYS, THE FUTURE, CYBERBIGOTS, ETC. (fwd) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 93 15:53:27 EST > If you don't think there is enough gay cyber/future fiction available, you > could try writing some. Don't say that it's not available at all, though; > John Varley explores same-sex relationships in some detail, and Orson > Scott Card gave it a very interesting treatment in "Songbird." There is always the many books by Samuel Delaney. _Stars_in_My_Pocket_Like_Grains_of_Sand_ is good. None of his stuff is exactly *cyberpunk*, at least what I've read... often its loosely sci fi or fantasy, but on a deeper level is about semiotics, symbols, language, and the writing of novels. But his "plot-level" stories are great, and the futuristic ones are sometimes unique and visionary, somewhat. Also highly recommended by me is his book _Dhalgren_, an 800 page (or so) masterpiece of the english language, imho, to put it mildly... And, to tie this in with the thread, his characrters are often gay or bisexual. Paul -- Paul Fly | "Thinking is more interesting than knowing, but fly@geog.buffalo.edu | less interesting than looking." --Goethe ______________________________ From: hassinge@sfu.ca Subject: Re: Sexuality, homosexuality, Cyberpunk, Labels, the Meaning of Liff (fwd) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 93 12:59:14 PST from the mouth of Patrick McKee ] From pmckee@uafhp.uark.edu Mon Feb 1 12:07:44 1993 ] X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University ] of Denver. The University has neither control over nor ] responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. ] Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1993 13:48:22 +0600 (CST) ] From: Patrick McKee ] Subject: Re: Sexuality, homosexuality, Cyberpunk, Labels, the Meaning of Liff ] To: shrooooooooooms! ] Cc: future@nyx.cs.du.edu ] In-Reply-To: <9302010413.AA19578@nyx.cs.du.edu> ] Message-Id: ] Mime-Version: 1.0 ] Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ] ] On Sun, 31 Jan 1993, shrooooooooooms! wrote: ] ] > Michael Current - thanks for that well done post. I tried to respond, ] > found myself starting over many times saying to myself that whatever I ] > wanted to say, you had already pointed out. ] ] Yes, thanks... ] ] > Something I've been wanting to say about this for awhile, that will ] > probably draw large discussions: ] > ] > Some prominent sociologists hold to the theory that the more complex ] > society becomes, the more psychological dysfunctions/problems arise. ] > Agree or disagree? Are American talk shows example A?!?! (ie, every ] > American ytalk show seems to have 3 people with some new psychological ] > or psychosomatic problem, and then 1 "psychologist" who has just ] > "discovered" this problem and written a book about it....) ] ] I wrote this a while ago in response to the AUtopia thread. And the ] possibility of disorders in dense populations. It might apply some what. ] ] ------------------Forward------------------- ] ] I have to agree that some sort of alternative needs to be found. To ] just stay on board an isolated 'techno-troller' (tm) is going to be ] very difficult to say the least. There was a study done in the 1930's ] that linked mental illness to high density living conditions. I think ] the book's title was 'Mental Disorders and High Density Living' (I am ] not sure, but am trying to find out). The researchers broke down ] densly populated cities into zones and according to all their findings ] in high density living, aberrant behavior was rampant. The largest ] problem seemed to be alcoholism with schizophrenia running a close ] second. I think that this study should be taken into consideration ] when planning this type of community. [etc.......] ] Philip K. Dick was drawing on this data when he wrote _Martian Time Slip_, but I,too, cannot remember the exact title of the study. The novel, BTW, is my 2nd fave PKD work (after VALIS), a very good alternate take on the meaning of schizophrenia and autism from someone who obviously had been there. (Mental illness, not Mars) As for the theory itself, it makes sense to me that high- density living has caused psychological problems, especially since it is a relatively new phenomonon and almost no thought has been put into attempting to ease the alienation, discomfort and shock of such a living arrangement. However, I think that such problems can be lessened greatly if such an effort is made. The technology that now exists (some of which I am using to write this message with) enables an individual to have a great deal over his/her environment and community life, real and virtual, and can be used to easily create healthy, comfortable living arrangements in a minimum of space and regardless of geography. Sorry, I left my coherence hat at home today. And my lucidit socks are in the wash. ] ] > ] > -- ] > ] > ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ] > ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ] > ] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -fold here- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ha!sSinge # "well we had to drown the gat, but we saved you two gittens" ------> Sebastian Hassinger: hassinge@sfu.ca <------ "run, run as fast as you can, you can't catch me, I'm the gingerbread man!" -- ______________________________ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 93 22:01:31 +0100 From: cardell@lysator.liu.se Subject: Drug liberation in switzerland ? Well, I don't know anything about the drug liberation, but I do know that public referendums are held several times a year in .ch. Last year, I think, they were *so* close of abolishing their army! Great step towards democracy if you ask me... Anyone from .ch who cares to comment on this and the drug liberation? mikael cardell S P U N K P R E S S ______________________________ Date: 01 Feb 1993 16:20:24 -0500 From: "I love children--they taste just like chicken." Subject: Re: gays, lesbians, etc in sci fi/cyber scribbing ...> If you don't think there is enough gay cyber/future fiction available, you ...> could try writing some. Don't say that it's not available at all, though; ...> John Varley explores same-sex relationships in some detail, and Orson ...> Scott Card gave it a very interesting treatment in "Songbird." ...There is always the many books by Samuel Delaney. ..._Stars_in_My_Pocket_Like_Grains_of_Sand_ is good. None of his stuff is Also, you could include Ursula K. LeGuinn (or Ursula K. Baby as she is known in some circles). Her sci-fi almost always includes gay/bi/lesbian folks. She seems to treat characters as people first, gay/bi/lesbian 100th or something (which is how it should be <- insert opinion here). So you might never even notice she is writing about these things if you don't actively watch for it. I guess the thread is about "Are there any scifi/cyber books that focus on sexual orientation?" Maybe the lack of such books reflects the growing notion that people are not hetero- or homo- but just sexual--and our visionary scifi writers are extrapolating that idea into a future where sexuality is not as big of an issue as it is now--hence no need to center on it in a novel. The best way to downplay something in a novel would seem to be to give it a cursory mention and then just forget about it...as Ursula K. Baby seems to do. randy ikrp500@indyvax.iupui.edu ______________________________ Date: 01 Feb 1993 15:46:29 -0600 (CST) From: Scotto >Hmm. Reminds of an sf book I remember reading. In it the protagonist >was out of the loop for several years (off-planet? suspended >animation? I don't remember) and when she got back homo/bi sexuality >was mainstream... The book is called "The Forever Wars," written by Joe Haldemann. Nitpick: the protagonist, Sgt. Mandala, was male, not female. A very fine companion piece, if you will, to Heinlein's "Starship Troopers." (heh) ______________________________ Date: Mon, 01 Feb 93 13:57:35 PDT From: Subject: cyberpunk goes mainstream I've heard some talk about how articles on cyberpunk in mainstream media, the emergence of WIRED, etc., all show that the scene is being "popularized," "selling out," being "diluted," "co-opted" and so forth. Some people seem to think that this is bad. (Maybe so.) But I can think of one very important point in favor of popularization. Generally, the way technology becomes inexpensive is for it to become very widespread. (Economies of scale and all that). I say popularize the hell out of it. I'd like to see every 12- year-old in the country pestering mommy and daddy for VR equipment, whether they're young genius hackers or just want to play Super Virtual Mario Universe. That's the only way it'll ever become cheap enough that I can afford it. ______________________________________________________ | | | Tom Good = tomg@image.com | | | | "Remember, don't shoot food!" | |______________________________________________________| ______________________________ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1993 18:21:02 -0400 (AST) From: APACE@mta.ca (TONY PACE) Subject: Population density and insanity I know I'm pointing out the obvious here, but this is a major thesis of Toffler's _Future Shock_ as well as _Shockwave Rider_, the novel inspired by it. As the pace of change increases, our ability to cope with an everchanging world decreases, plunging us into insanity. Brunner's solution is to create "enclaves" of stability, while Toffler suggests that we may have to carry our stability with us, in the form of familiar objects. Maybe the application of this to the original thread would be through the formation of subcultures. They form and dissipate at great speed, creating new ideas and spinning them off into the mainstream as the group dissolves. Some of these groups would be homosexual, some straight, some indentified as neither. Stratification will tend to increase, but it will be more of a group vs. group thing, as opposed to 'straight' vs. 'gay'. It will become more difficult to indentify general classes of humanity to oppose or identify with, as the streams of human culture mix and bifurcate into new and unpredictable forms. "How fast are you? How dense?" - Rucker Tony Pace apace@macc2.mta.ca ______________________________ Date: 01 Feb 1993 16:20:45 -0600 (CST) From: Scotto >Also, you could include Ursula K. LeGuinn (or Ursula K. Baby as she is known >in some circles). Her sci-fi almost always includes gay/bi/lesbian folks. >Maybe the lack of such books reflects the growing notion that people are not >hetero- or homo- but just sexual-- On this topic, then, might I recommend Ursula K's novel "The Left Hand Of Darkness." The protagonist finds himself on a planet where the inhabitants are androgynous until they decide to mate, at which point one particpant arbitarily assumes a "male" position and one arbitrarily assumes a "female" -- and this can change from mate to mate. Very interesting way of approaching sexuality, I think. ______________________________ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 93 16:58 CDT From: Institute for Intelligent Systems Subject: AI, ALife, and Life in the InfoGlut Well, after a long, undeserved, and wholly unexpected absence from the 'net (thank you, comp srvcs ppl), I am back. Ever try to catch up with 1119 msgs? Jesus, but the list has grown in a month! Anyway, just wanted to let everyone know I was away, but now I'm back. (PACOID: Get in touch w/me re: the article...I'd be glad to!) I plan to weed through all the mail tonight (wish I had a working MAIA... :) ) But I was thinking (I did scan a few more catchily-titled msgs)... Anyone familiar with genetic algorithms? Well, consider this: mimetic algorithms... I'll be back with more on that topic in a bit...for now, discuss amongst yourselves...I have a calc-useless class to bestir my butt towards. ttfn, Mark C. Langston langston@memstvx1.memst.edu fugue@mindvox.phantom.com ______________________________ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 93 15:18:57 -0800 From: Unpleasant Chameleon Subject: Re: body modification On the subject of tongue piercings, it is not an "earring in your tongue" but rather a bar-bell shaped thing going through the middle of the tongue back toward the base. Once taken out, the pierce will heal very quickly. I have heard like 4 hours, but don't take my word for it. I'd hate to be responsible for the hole in someone's tongue! :) I don't really know why people get them: it makes their speech funny, it doesn't do anything but click around in their mouths, and you can't eat for a while after you get it pierced. If you want to get an "exotic piercing", you should not go to Claire's in the mall. There are places that specialize in such things, like Gauntlet in LA and SF. Even tattoo parlors like the one down the street from me are getting in on the act. DEAD TREND or NEWLY SOCIALLY-ACCEPTABLE FASHION? You make the call. Conjuring the ghost of Doug Llewelyn, GRiM ______________________________ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 93 16:51 MST From: BLINCOLN@cc.weber.edu Subject: cyberculture Why is everyone SOOOO worried about cyberculture and the media. You are not a part of cyberstuff because you are wanting or not wanting media coverage. Hopefully you are in because it interests you or you believe in it or because you want to be on the cutting edge of society. Who cares what Dan Blather or Peter Jennings has to say about it. I certainly don't. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------RAVE DJ'S SPIN THE WORLD......DIGITAL MERMAN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 93 16:13:54 -0800 From: Unpleasant Chameleon Subject: MORE-ON MEDIA We should be exploiting the media before they exploit us! This list would be the perfect vehicle. Abbie Hoffman did it with the Yippies. Little did the know that the Yippies were largely fabrication! Check out _Revolution for the Hell of it_, or _The Best of Abbie Hoffman_. I think that this would dovetail nicely with the manifesto idea. Send those goons at _Time_ a copy, though IMHO any manifesto should be cryptic and vague. Goal: publicity. -- GRiM ______________________________ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 93 19:22:02 EST From: majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu (Murali) Subject: Hacking the Brainstim :Any one interested in the subject of neural hacking, or who just want :to read a good book by a cool science fiction writer, read :_Snow Crash_ by Neil Stephenson. I give it two thumbs up. :) Make that four. :-) _SnowCrash_ is one of the best pieces of c-punkish stuff that I've read. It's almost-kinda a parody of the genre (on the first page there's a line about how the Protaganist's clothes are as black as charcoal, filtering out the light, or something like that...it's very pseudo-cliche, but kinda funny...) Definitely worth a read - one of my faves. Murali majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu "I am forever in your debt!" New Edge Consulting Services | "Nonsense...how can a friend P.O. Box 156, Amherst, NY 14226 | be in debt?" Voice: (716) 834-1648 -From Russia With Love ______________________________ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 93 19:29:32 EST From: majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu (Murali) Subject: GAYS, THE FUTURE, CYBERBIGOTS, ETC. (fwd) :> If you don't think there is enough gay cyber/future fiction available, you :> could try writing some. Don't say that it's not available at all, though; :> John Varley explores same-sex relationships in some detail, and Orson :> Scott Card gave it a very interesting treatment in "Songbird." Also, available and lauded much on-line, are Elf Sternberg's "Journal Entries". Warning for the prim 'n proper: they're _chock_ full of "alternate" sex, but they're also wonderfully written in a SF style. If you like ringworlds, genetic manipulation, wierd sex with furry "aliens", and ripping good story as well, check 'em out. [I think they're available on ftp at 128.2.209.227, or tezuka.rest.ri.cmu.edu in the pub/stories/journal_entries dir.] Murali majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu "I am forever in your debt!" New Edge Consulting Services | "Nonsense...how can a friend P.O. Box 156, Amherst, NY 14226 | be in debt?" Voice: (716) 834-1648 -From Russia With Love ______________________________ Subject: MORE-ON MEDIA (fwd) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 93 19:20:40 EST From: Mitchell Porter > We should be exploiting the media before they exploit us! This list would be > the perfect vehicle. Abbie Hoffman did it with the Yippies. Little did the > know that the Yippies were largely fabrication! > Check out _Revolution for the Hell of it_, or _The Best of Abbie Hoffman_. > I think that this would dovetail nicely with the manifesto idea. Send those > goons at _Time_ a copy, though IMHO any manifesto should be cryptic and vague. > Goal: publicity. > > -- > GRiM suppose you achieve "publicity".. what then? ie what are your goals? ______________________________ Date: Mon, 01 Feb 93 19:26 CST From: P30TMR8%NIU.BITNET@UICVM.UIC.EDU Subject: take a chance on love The idea of flipping a coin to decide who does what to whom does sort of appeal to me-but it also gives a whole new meaning to that old song "take a chance on love". Just figuring the odds and ends, Seduction ______________________________ Date: Mon, 01 Feb 93 20:13 CST From: P30TMR8%NIU.BITNET@UICVM.UIC.EDU Subject: It's showtime! The problem is, up until now we have just been noise. Now Mr. and Miss America are learning codes from the media that will allow them to interprete us:not that this interpretation will have much to do with our collective self image. Soon, the same people that KNOW that all negros are inately musical and really love dat watermelon will KNOW all about them cyberpunks. How do you intend to react the first time someone asks you how often you've cracked someone elses ATM account to get your party money for the weekend. Brace yourselfs folks, ME've been discovered, It's showtime! Seduction P.S. Actually, I think we should, right now, establish a prize for the person of limited talent who does the best job of getting fat and sassy selling out like a happy hooker. We might call it the "much ado about nothing" prize and hand it out when a consensus is achieved that we need to get together in our humble fleshes in order to save ourselves further embarassment by giving "cyberpunk" a decent burial. P.S. If anyone out there is talented enough to make an "all hail the new flesh" shirt for a reasonable price I will buy one from you. ______________________________ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1993 21:46:29 -0500 From: Elizabeth Schwartz 's message of 01 Feb 1993 16:20:24 -0500 <01GU7OV4YK4200315J@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU> Subject: gays, lesbians, etc in sci fi/cyber scribbing Marge Piercy's "He She and It" (published overseas as "Body of Glass" ) has a nice treatment of the issue of sex between a human and an android. Piercy's the only Jewish-Feminist-Cyberpunk author I know of :-) If we let people see that kind of thing, there would never again be any war. -- A senior Pentagon official, explaining why they refused to release video footage of fleeing Iraqi soldiers being cut in half by helicopter cannon fire, February 1991. ______________________________ Date: 01 Feb 1993 23:24:21 -0600 (CST) From: "free agent .rez" Subject: Re: hope you read it all patrick: >It was...all of those things. I still feel the way I feel. I am sorry. >I wish I could feel different. It has probably been conditioned into me. >I fear that it would take a lot to get rid of it. I do not like being >one of the conditioned masses, busily buying Kraft Mayo(tm) and Levi jeans. >But I am. I am trying not to be as close-minded, perhaps that is why I joined >this list. I don't really know why. It appealed to me. Maybe the future >would be better than the past. I still don't know. I may never know. >It does not look good. I am glad that you work counseling victims. Keep >it up. Maybe it will help. >About this list. I probably should try to find another home for me to >stay at. I mean I really do not have anything in common with the guys and >girls here, except that I was a computer guy in the seventies and a phone >phreak, and was always a little controversial (long-haired hippy in a >cow-patty town). But now I am mostly conservative and do not strive to >be wierd anymore. for me it was never a question of wierdness (well, it was at one time, but like you, once i'd sort of morphed out of that...) it became more a matter of community. any community has resonance and dissonance. the future may be a scary bugaboo, but if so we're some of the only ones in any sort of a position to alter that. i truly feel that. so i'd say hang on, hold out. lurk, if you must. but never, ever fade away... .rez - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Great is the stature of the tree of life, and great the strength given to all who must climb it; and the winds that clutch and sway its branches can be most fierce, and the view downward dreadful. Between what rocks do the roots of the tree thrust themselves, to what light do its branches rise, what fruit will it bear? All must answer for themselves, each alone." ______________________________ Date: 01 Feb 1993 23:37:44 -0600 (CST) From: "free agent .rez" Subject: Re: population density & insanity tony: >As the pace of change increases, our ability to cope with >an everchanging world decreases, plunging us into insanity. > Brunner's solution is to create "enclaves" of stability, while Toffler >suggests that we may have to carry our stability with us, in the form of >familiar objects. the Net itself may very well be, imho, the means to achieve this above and much more. (optimism gushes forth... ;) ) the "enclaves of stability" on the Net, which i am terminf VIRTUAL CULTURES in my project on the same, are not only capable of re-inforcing community but ALSO, thanks to the speed and efficiency of e-media, *capable of compensating at a rate as accellerated as the future into which we are plunging.* this, to me, is an improtant factor which cannot be overlooked. our means to compensate for our circumstances (collectively, so to speak, or individually) is limitted only by our need and our means. in a sense, a VIRTUAL CULTURE such as f.c. *IS* a "familiar object," a portable stability. ...there needs to be a term opposite of "flame..." enthuse-off. ;) .rez, feeling better than expected today. ______________________________ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1993 16:53:45 +1100 From: waite07@angis.su.oz.au (Alex Jeffries) Subject: Re:Tatooing/body implants atman says on the subjct of tatooing; How about a heat- or electrically-sensitive color-changing material placed in a a square (or whatever) over a subcutaneous dot-addressable pad? Something like the stuff in those forehead thermometers (although that obviously has too broad a range.) I guess this would be pretty tricky, since the immune cells in the g* and even the cells in the skin above are likely to be easily killed by wide ranges of voltage or temperature. You tatoo might also turn black or off when your skin reaches extreme temperatures. What kinds of sensitive non-toxic color- changing chemicals are available? I know that there are a vast array of heat, pH, redox etc. sensitive chemicals available however I know no specifics and would guess that most would be toxic or at least cytotoxic. Even if you could localize them under the skin, what then? pH and redox would be fairly constant and that leaves probably only temperature. Sure you could see some changes with a change in ambient temp. and you could heat up or cool down the tatooed area but this is a far cry from the controlable morphing of a holographic fractal tatoo under computer control. Hardly seems worth the bother. To keep at this subject, larger implants such as pieces of plastic with art work on them or liquid crystal displays etc. are more often than not going to cause considerable problems. There's the rigidity of the item to be considered. The only successful implants that I know of are either rigid by design/function, or are completely internal, or are very small. There are also problems with scaring and this is particularly so when the skin is the target. Lastly but probably most significantly there are problems with immune rejection. Either the material is made out of a completely neutral substance (even then rejection often sets in in the long term) or immuno-suppressive drugs are used. Even allowing for an improvement in the effectiveness of such drugs in the future they are still immuno-suppressive and this is not really such a good thing! Maybe in the future there can be made materials that present copies of *your* MHCs (major histocompatability complexes) *and* are flexible enough to be comfortable to bear *and* are useful for an artistic pupose, preferably along the lines of mutability. There is nothing wrong with having visions but don't hold your breath :-) On a slightly related topic, last year I read in iD magazine that an English couple had developed a way to print holographic images on to material. From the rather small picture included this material looked like rain-coat or spray jacket material which is probably understandable. Has anyone heard anything about this? It would have some obvious attractions for some people on this list. atman@rahul.net || "Burn hollywood burn!" Sync ye to the beat, and become it; once you understand it, you can destroy it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alx -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your heart is the metronome and rythm is the master music is the drug think future =========================================================================== ______________________________ Date: 02 Feb 1993 00:03:33 -0600 (CST) From: "free agent .rez" Subject: the new flesh >when a consensus >is achieved that we need to get together in our humble fleshes in >order to save ourselves further embarassment by giving "cyberpunk" >a decent burial. ...why, depends on what it's going to be replaced WITH. after FleshMeeting around 20 net.friends from around the country in the last year, i'd have to say that FleshMeets *do* have a tendency to change one's perspective on VIRTUALITY... >P.S. If anyone out there is talented enough to make an "all hail >the new flesh" shirt for a reasonable price I will buy one from >you. don't have the gnow-how, but i'd get one too. :) death, indeed, to videodrome. long live the NeoCarna, yessirree... .rez ______________________________ From: fly@geog.buffalo.edu (Paul Fly) Subject: AI, ALife, and Life in the InfoGlut (fwd) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 93 1:22:07 EST > Well, consider this: mimetic algorithms... I'll be back with more on > that topic in a bit...for now, discuss amongst yourselves...I have a > calc-useless class to bestir my butt towards. Heh, okay, I'll discuss it amongst myself. Let's see, gentics algorithms work by, if I've got this right: -mutating algorithms via some random mutation functions and/or sexual crossover functions, and then, -running the algorithms through some kind of fitness test of some sort, killing the ones who don't do too well. I can see mutating and crossing memes, via word play. But its the fitness test I see as being difficult. I can't think of a way to determine the *use* of a meme without actually introducing it into a human mind for "analysis". And gentics algorithms take LOTS of cycling to make much progress. A memetics algorithm would seem to require some kind of automated way of determining which memes were "better" and which were "worse". Does a person have to be in the loop? Paul -- Paul Fly | "Thinking is more interesting than knowing, but fly@geog.buffalo.edu | less interesting than looking." --Goethe _________________________________________________________________________ | | | That's all for today! | | To send a message to the list: future@nyx.cs.du.edu | | To subscribe/unsubscribe/change format: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | All other requests: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | List Maintainer is: (andy [aka hawkeye]) ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu | |_________________________________________________________________________| | | | The opinions expressed in FutureCulture are those of the individual | | author only. | |_________________________________________________________________________|