From - Wed Jan 14 11:38:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mrco.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA07503; Fri, 1 Jan 93 01:30:12 EST Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA24194; Fri, 1 Jan 93 01:29:32 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06084; Thu, 31 Dec 92 23:30:08 MST From: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (andy) Message-Id: <9301010630.AA06084@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: FutureCulture Digest #168 To: future-digest@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 23:30:08 MST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Status: RO ______________________________________________________________________ |______________ / | | / | | u t u r e <___________ u l t u r e | _______________________________________________________________________| Issue #168 Thursday, December 31st 1992 Today's Topics: --------------- M.U.T.L.U. / etc. as an AI Post-cyberpunk-labeling Re: Post-cyberpunk-labeling Re: The Difference Engine __________________________________________________________________________ From: yanek@novavax.nova.edu (Yanek Martinson) Subject: Re: The Difference Engine Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 6:26:23 EDT > Bruce Sterling & Gibson's collaboration _The Difference Engine_ has been > called "steampunk" -- What the hell is steampunk? What distinguishes it > from other labels? The computers are steam-powered and purely mechanical. -- Yanek Martinson mthvax.cs.miami.edu!safe0!yanek uunet!medexam!yanek this address preferred -->> yanek@novavax.nova.edu <<-- this address preferred Phone (305) 765-6300 daytime FAX: (305) 765-6708 1321 N 65 Way/Hollywood (305) 963-1931 evenings (305) 981-9812 Florida, 33024-5819 ______________________________ From: rwhit@cs.umu.se (Randall Whitaker) Subject: M.U.T.L.U. / etc. as an AI Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 17:36:57 +0100 (MET) I'm glad to see that someone else has picked up on the theory that the "Mutlu monster" and its apparent derivative(s) are not (at least not entirely) the work of a human. I suggested this in a posting to a couple of newsgroups last summer, during the height of the then-Mutlu's assaults. At that point, the theory of Mutlu-as-Machine was not specifically addressed with respect to an "AI". The sort of "bounce-back-the-message-with-randomly-selected- quotations" which typifies this particular beast does not require the degree of "semantic" parsing underlying even simpler "AI" programs (e.g., Eliza). Additional evidence includes the fact that last summer (in response to direct complaints) the admin. for then-Mutlu's then-utilized access point (a public access BBS with Internet connections) defended the right of his "customer" to do whatever he wished so long as he paid. This admin. admitted he had never spoken personally with Mutlu. No one, to my knowledge, has ever spoken personally with Mutlu (outside of email, etc.), so I've never seen any evidence to support a view that there must be a person behind it all. Someone was posting analyses of Mutlu behavior during the summer and early fall (I don't remember which news group(s), though...). It was interesting that Hasan seemed to be operating in "batch" or "burst" mode, broadcasting his/its stuff in fairly regular time slots distributed between early morning and late evening hours during the week. The continued regularity of this broadcasting behavior (during the period that the analyses were posted -- I haven't seen them lately...) did nothing to suggest that (1) H. Mutlu was simply a very busy pain in the Net and/or (2) his posting behavior was entirely a hit-or-miss, typically sloppy human approach to receiving and answering a deluge of messages. At one point (around July or August, I believe) during the height of the then-Mutlu onslaught, "Hasan" sent at least 2 responses to news groups which, along with his/its usual load of ripped-off historical diatribes, included a comment: "You have no idea of the experiment which is currently underway" (NOTE: That's the best paraphrase I can pull out of memory) This struck me as a blatant taunt by whoever is the man/thing behind Mutlu's particular curtain (veil?) that what we were dealing with was not something which could be grasped solely by its surface appearance (the postings). Finally (and admittedly even further out....) around August there appeared a couple of postings from a person at Harvard, commenting on the Mutlu phenomenon as if it were, in fact, a phenomenon (as opposed to pathological behavior by a human poster). This person's signature was a longish Middle- Eastern (Turkish?) sort of name, from which I noted the letter sequence "M-U-T-L-U" could be extracted in linear (but not consecutive) order. I tried to track down this person, but (other than confirming the association of that name with a host site in Comp. Sci. at Harvard via "finger"), I never managed to collect any clues. At about that time, I had to travel a good deal on business, plus put the finishing touches on my dissertation. As a result, I was extremely out of touch until a few weeks ago, and I have no idea what's been happening with the Mutlu-phenomenon in the meantime. I suppose one thing that could be done would be to collect as much evidence as we can, to see if there's any way to "substantiate" Mutlu as a conspiracy (at least partially) conducted via computer(s) rather than human(s). My own version of the theory was that Hasan was part of someone's experiment concerning flaming behavior or net sabotage -- i.e., a provocative means of collecting data. Finally, I would like to caution against the "von Daniken Effect" -- i.e., attributing anything sufficiently elaborate to some superhuman (in this case technological) agent's intervention. It is not beyond the bounds of reason that Hasan and his descendant(s)/clone(s) are the freakishly intricate work of one person with a Hell of an attitude..... -- Randy Randall Whitaker, Informationsbehandling/ADB, Umea Univ., 901 87 Umea Sweden "There's nothing hidden anywhere -- it's all there to be sought" K. Reid ______________________________ From: wixer!bladex@cs.utexas.edu (David Smith) Subject: Post-cyberpunk-labeling Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 23:15:59 CST The cyberpunk literature movement of the mid-80s has disbanded. Members have split into their separate ways....but what are they doing? is what I want to know. And what's so different? Lewis Shiner's novel _Slam_ (go read it) has been called "slipstream" What is slipstream? In the interview in bOING-bOING (go read BB if you haven't) he mentions that on a micro level characters are very real, very personal. They are just average Joes looking to get by. But on a *macro* level in society, everything goes haire. So what's slipstream? Who else writes slipstream? Bruce Sterling & Gibson's collaboration _The Difference Engine_ (neither recommended nor dis-recommended) has been called "steampunk" I saw an ad -- or maybe it was a review -- in Science Fiction Age that called the book "steampunk". What the hell is steampunk? What distinguishes it from other labels? ______________________________ From: ahawks (aristotle) Subject: Re: Post-cyberpunk-labeling Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 12:42:03 MST New fresh-scented *David Smith* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | |The cyberpunk literature movement of the mid-80s has disbanded. Members have |split into their separate ways....but what are they doing? is what I want to |know. And what's so different? I don't know if this is just coincidence or what, but, did you by chance see my post on alt.cyberpunk? I posted about roughly the same thing yesterday.... |Lewis Shiner's novel _Slam_ (go read it) has been called "slipstream" What |is slipstream? In the interview in bOING-bOING (go read BB if you haven't) |he mentions that on a micro level characters are very real, very personal. |They are just average Joes looking to get by. But on a *macro* level in |society, everything goes haire. So what's slipstream? Who else writes |slipstream? Very crudely, I've heard slipstream defined as "pre-1984 cyberpunk".... In my mind, it's just fiction that is out there that helped define he mold of the dark, industrial, postmodern, sometimes psychedelic worlds cyberpunk generally likes to inhabit - and it has the potential of being "transreal".... I always mention Burroughs when people talk about slipstream....Others might include Huxley, Orwell, Pynchon, J. G. Ballard..... Culturally, specifically in terms of music, you might say the Velvet Underground were slipstream (he offered as Lou Reed belches "when I put the smack into my vein", over a quarter a century ago.....) |Bruce Sterling & Gibson's collaboration _The Difference Engine_ (neither |recommended nor dis-recommended) has been called "steampunk" I saw an ad -- |or maybe it was a review -- in Science Fiction Age that called the book |"steampunk". What the hell is steampunk? What distinguishes it from other |labels? Anyone know of any other steampunk novels? I'd say that's the only one... It's the "these-guys-invented-da-shit-let's-give-em-more-labels" syndrome....Industrial revolutiion-cyberpunk, that's how I'd label it... If we're going to get that picky, then we could go back and label Gernsback Continuum and some of Sterling's work "modpunk" (tm)..... So, anyone wanna take bets on who'll be the definitive "slippunk" author? How 'bout "post-punk"? =) Reading labels can be fun...All filler no killer..... -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu _________________________________________________________________________ | | | That's all for today! | | To send a message to the list: future@nyx.cs.du.edu | | To subscribe/unsubscribe/change format: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | All other requests: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | List Maintainer is: (andy [aka hawkeye]) ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu | |_________________________________________________________________________| | | | The opinions expressed in FutureCulture are those of the individual | | author only. | |_________________________________________________________________________|