From - Wed Jan 14 11:31:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mrco.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA02209; Sat, 19 Dec 92 02:42:48 EST Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA00304; Sat, 19 Dec 92 01:29:43 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20793; Fri, 18 Dec 92 23:30:13 MST From: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (andy) Message-Id: <9212190630.AA20793@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: FutureCulture Digest #156 To: future-digest@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 23:30:12 MST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Status: R ______________________________________________________________________ |______________ / | | / | | u t u r e <___________ u l t u r e | _______________________________________________________________________| Issue #156 Friday, December 18th 1992 Today's Topics: --------------- #future A call to arms AIA systems net.currency net/currency Re: AIA systems Re: Details Article Re: net.currency re: turists comment Who Had Agrippa Archived on FTP? Who's Who of the InterNet __________________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 10:37:07 +0100 From: tor@geomatic.no (Tor Langballe) Subject: net.currency -mark langstonwrites: > regarding net.currency... >What happened to freedom of information? I'll be damned if I have to pay >(in any form) for the information I now receive for free. Move the net >to a currency basis, and watch fascism in action. How would one decide >how valuable certain information is? Would I go net.broke trying to access >new info? Would information extortion become commonplace? How about >information hostage situations? Bribery? C'mon...the idea of the net is >to get _away_ from this kind of corrupt exchange policy. I refuse to take >part in any currency policy for information exchange. What do you think is >taking place right now with the new crop of 'information brokers'? A few >people are getting rich by selling personal information to various >corporations. If this trend continues, we will witness the rise of a new >societal class...the informationally poor. We are already walked on by >people with monetary power. Now you suggest we put these same people in >control of the information? I thing you misunderstood my direction, I did'nt mean you had to pay to get info, I meant software from existing software houses, say Adobe. If you want to purchase Adobe Illustrator, instead of using "old world" transactions, you "barter" with cyberspace credits that you've earned somehow. The trouble is, how to earn them if you don't sell software (I for one think software should be paid for, being a developer and all) There would have to be an exchange between dollars etc and cyberspace credits, which would make it less novel. I aggree on your ideas of free info, my previous example of "paying to upload" was more in the line of purchasing commercial programs. (The other day I had to pay 20$ charge fee to make out a $25 check to send by snailmail to the U.S.A to buy a simple program...) As we live more and more in cyberspace, some form of currency will be needed, or what do other people think? -Tor O --------------------------O------------------------------------------------O ! Tor Langballe ! Yesterday I logged out of cyberspace and went ! ! day : +47 2 50 43 30 ! for a walk. I got run over by a bus. Luckily ! ! nite : +47 2 44 96 39 ! I was in a nested, double log-in session. ! ! fax : +47 2 50 05 55 ! ! ! net : tor@geomatic.no ! ! ! space: Eckersbergsgate 31 ! ! ! 0266 OSLO 2 Norway ! ! O---------------------------!------------------------------------------------O ______________________________ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 05:07 CDT From: Institute for Intelligent Systems Subject: net/currency Tor - i did misunderstand. In the case of commercial software (and other mundane tangibles), I like the idea of net.currency. But don't you think there's an inherent danger that what my earlier post railed against might come to pass if an exchange standard is introduced to the net? "Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny" -mark langston ______________________________ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 06:54:48 -0800 (PST) From: John Frost Subject: Re: net.currency On Fri, 18 Dec 1992, Tor Langballe added his two cents: > > I thing you misunderstood my direction, I did'nt mean you had to pay to get > info, I meant software from existing software houses, say Adobe. > > If you want to purchase Adobe Illustrator, instead of using "old world" > transactions, you "barter" with cyberspace credits that you've earned > somehow. You really think that Adobe is going to "barter" with the thousands of people who want to purchase their products? Nope! They will just charge the going exchange rate of net.credits for dollars. Only the little software houses (btw, this concept would seem to work for things like clipart and GIFs) would be forced to barter in order to get some name recognition. The problem is large houses can better absorb money losses due to this system then small houses can. > The trouble is, how to earn them if you don't sell software > (I for one think software should be paid for, being a developer and all) > There would have to be an exchange between dollars etc and cyberspace credits, > which would make it less novel. > > As we live more and more in cyberspace, some form of currency will be needed, > or what do other people think? I think that some form of currency already exists. Plastic. Credit Cards. Debit Cards. American Express. People use these forms everyday to buy software and the like from places like MACwharehouse, MICROwharehouse, etc.. All you need is a fax (fax/modem) and you've got access. OR goto Compuserve or Prodigy, these things you ask for already exist. Am I such a luddite for requesting we keep these fiscal transactions off the (world) net? I am personally against credit as it only makes the MNC's richer. Also I prefer cash since it is mostly untraceable and offers me privacy. Credit/Plasitic/Electronic transactions don't offer me any privacy. (Don't think that public encryption won't be cracked by some info house and the found information sold to corps that want to know your credit/personal record. It is a romantic idea however.) Enough for now... goto go earn some cold hard cash. -- If I told you this was from Gibson's next novel would you believe me? "Aaron Pursley was already Learing it back to Cincinatti in a plane that had no metal in it whatsoever, Karen had locked the goggles across her eyes and was talking non-stop to at least six people at once, and Rydell was sitting on the edge of her big white bed, starting to get the idea that something had changed." frost@netcom.com ______________________________ From: Steven J. Subject: re: turists comment Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 13:55:53 CST ______________________________ From: the! ->*shrug* -> ->I don't really *like* smileys, to tell you the truth. Neither do I, that's why I didn't use them. Steve J. White ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ______________________________ From: Steven J. Subject: AIA systems Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 14:35:49 CST I've thought of a few things re: AIA stuff... If a software system such as an AIA would exist wouldn't it take more than a new piece of code to do all the work that is being talked about? I think it would involve the development of a new communication protocol because these AIA's would have to have free reign of Internet i.e. getting onto systems without loggin into specific accounts and such. Am I missing something here? Steve J. White ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ______________________________ Date: 18 Dec 1992 13:36:34 -0800 (PST) From: Vlad the Impaler Subject: Re: AIA systems Steve J. White scribes: >If a software system such as an AIA would exist wouldn't it take more than a >new piece of code to do all the work that is being talked about? I think it >would involve the development of a new communication protocol because these >AIA's would have to have free reign of Internet i.e. getting onto systems >without loggin into specific accounts and such. Am I missing something here? No, not that I can tell. It would probably be possible to do it with the present structures in place, but it would be insanely complicated and annoying and huge a project just writing handlers for the protocols, etc... let alone write the AIA's themselves. If the AIA's would be written as currently planned, huge intelligent databases capable of growing, mating, etc..., the protocol bit would only complicate things further, and make the implementation even more inelegant and bulky. Yet at the same time, viewing the project as a whole, handling protocols and different machines would be a lot easier than the coding of the proposed AIAs themselves. I don't think you're missing anything, but I think the actual resolution of the intelligence and algorithms of the AIAs would be the MUCH MUCH bigger bone to swallow at the present. Questions o' my own: This is a bit far-fetched (even more-so than AIAs), but when dealing with AI there is always the concept/question of self-awareness/sentience. Supposing the AIA is implemented successfully, how would we police them? How could we even tell if an AIA was sentient or not? We, being unable to see what they are doing, only knowing what they GIVE us, would be quite blind to any other activities that an AIA might participate. With intelligence comes a will, and what is to be done if something of this sort gains a will and a drive of its own? Write the thing to always obey you, but if an AIA is to be self-modifying and able to grow in intelligence it could easily override anything that it was originally programmed to do. This probably sounds like a conspiracy-thing, but it's only curiosity. Would we end up like in Gibson-world and have some distant Turing Institute with logic bombs for every AIA in existene? Is there an easier solution to this? Just a few questions... Bret -bambrose@pomona.claremont.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Any amount of stupidity reflected from this merely shohs thaht mi pahrehnttz diht nohttt teytch mea wehl. >Steve J. White >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu > aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ______________________________ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:12 EST From: Matt Willis Subject: A call to arms Anyone interested in a BITNET relay chat, give me an e-yell. I think it'd be pretty interesting to organize a chat session on bitnet... mainly because it's quick, ultra-private (using negative high-numbers) and easy to use... If anyone's on BITNET and has no idea what RELAY is, I'd be more than happy to explain... While IRC chats are swell, they're just not as easy for us bit-netters... write me write me write me (I hate all the blathering idiots on public relay channels) P.S. I'd like to get on an internet connected service (so I can FTP and IRC). I know of MindVox and the Well, any suggestions on the best? +-------Matt-Willis--------------------------------+ | Matt Willis ASTMWILL@STETSON.BITNET | | Matt Willis Head of the Underground | | Matt Willis Robotech PBM List | +-------Matt-Willis--------------------------------+ "Absolutely alone in awareness of the mechanism." -Agrippa by W.G. ______________________________ From: ahawks (ravE on) Subject: Re: Details Article Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 16:44:14 MST Couldn't pass this reply up...I love talking about the state of popular media.... New fresh-scented *CONCEPCION%BABSON.bitnet@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | |Yo all, | Has anyone checked the Jan. '93 ish of Details? Most interessant. |William Gibson did a Q&A on style in the nineties that was very much in line |with the cyberpunk dogmas, naturally. | |"Will computers ever replace narcotics as a form of escape?" | - T.M. (Brooklyn, NY) |"Yes, but not until they're small enough to ingest nasally and in quantity. |But that's probably not going to take too long." | |"What will come of this new collaboration of the KGB and CIA?" | - J.D. (Long Beach, CA) |"Given that both organizations, long since rendered conceptually formless, are |gifted with the most marvelous communications hardware - low-level satellites |in particular - I would like to see them forge the ULTIMATE POP NETWORK. The |KGB should've really signed with MTV in the first place, but the KGB/CIA chann |still has terrific potential." | |"If machines get too powerful, will it be O.K. to pull the plug or will we hav |to treat them like people? (comments from the mailer: sound like a std. Blade |Runner q. to me)" - R. T. (Los Angeles, CA) | |"In the 1st place, machines are already 'too powerful'. In the second, do |you seriously imagine that any street-smart 'machine' is going to leave you |a 'plug' to 'pull'?" Honestly, I laughed at the Gibson "article" (just a regular celebrity Q&A)...It's entitled "the determinator: Cyberpunk author William Gibson on the style of technology and the technology of style"....Gibson & technology? Well, I guess things have changed since agrippa, but, does anybody remember the good-ole-daze when Gibson had a clunk-e typewriter? Now all of a sudden he's commenting on technology.... |There are also music articles on Meat Beat Manifesto spanning two pages, a bit |on the techno-pop groups in their British Music Column, Hey DJ. (specifical |groups: The Movement, Moby, Shamen, Utah Saints, The Prodigy, & Bizarre Inc.) |In addition, there's a one page ambivalent article on Mondo 2000. A blurb on |Anime-branded T-shirts was just seen. Anime t-shirts are already out there....I don't know why the said it was going to be a fashion-future-trend... The Mondo article was fairly decent, on target... It's a quick-gloss-glance overview of the mag, the culture, and the User's Guide.... The techno stuff was decent - Details has always been reporting on raves, probably the only K-mart-esque rag to do so....But, I guess that comes from their clubkids tradition, before they went gloss (remember 87?) |Now, my first reaction was "this is good, a lot more coverage than usual on th |'edge'." To the media hermits who don't know Details: It's a New York based |style mag that might carry a story on the "New Edge" or two, but not in these |numbers. Then my second reaction was slight dismay. To paraphrase a not-so- Hmm...They just report on what's NY-hip...If that happens to be new edge, then all the better.... |recent Spin article "if hip 12 year olds are dropping E, memorizing the M2K |Textbook, and going through used sci-fi book shoppes with McCafferey's Stormin |the Reality Studio in a fingerless gloved hand, then what are hip 20 year olds |supposed to do?" What issue was this in? I've got every issue back 6 years, but I dunno if I've seen this... |If our "hobby" is getting mainstream, must we take up roots and finding some |other movement that's more of an edge on the plane of corporate influenced |consciousness? Or must we stay loyal to the 'movement' and stick with what we |know? After all, Details is pretty hip and it'll probably take five years for |it to filter down to a mallmuffin who's brain's been fried by subliminal corp |propaganda pumped in through those bubblegum music cassettes. Yet it could be |the beginning of an end. Hehehe, welp, where I live, Details is mallmuff fodder once it hits the stands....At least, in the sek-tors of Denver I hang out in.... |Questions, replies, flames? Come on in and initiate this newcomer. Welp, a couple of analogies for ya....I was talking with a stylish friend today, and we both agreed that know was the time to cut off our top-knots, since they're getting too mainstream for comfort...I remember him saying "I'd rather go Caeser [what we call those real-short/almost-skin haircuts w/ long 90210 sideburns] and be sad about having to change my style, rather then have a top-knot now that everyone else here in BFE does..." It all comes down to your reasons for being in to what you're into...My friend, obviously, is concerned about staying on the edge and sacrificing his own happiness to an extent to do so....It's fine with me, too.... It all comes down to where do you put yourself in the cultural-curve - is it ok to stay a step ahead AND a step behind? is it ok to be mainstream? Naturally, a lot of people will say "yes", beause it's sort of a taboo to be stylish and into subcultures before they hit mainstream, for some dumb reason.... My opinion is, whether you're making the curve, following the curve, or riding the crest of the curve, all have their purpose, none is better than the other - you can't have leaders w/o followers and vice versa.... People have been saying that cyberpunk is out since 1984.....Welp, the cyberpunk crowd continues to be near that forefront of the curve, because the new edge is filled with inquisitive creative open minds that constantly morph their thoughts....The more mainstream you get, the dsmaller the proportion of morph-ers are out there, and the more mallmuffs, thus the culture starts to die....In the meantime, those at the forefront have continued to morph.... Cyberpunk will never die, it will just keep morphing into the future. The Name will change, and so will everything else. SOUNDBITE (tm) GlossFloss Int'l Inc. =) | Chris Concepcion | Concepcion@Babson.Bitnet | Prodigy:NKCR72D | A rider on the digital wind | |The Face: "What do you fear most for the future?" |Colin Angus: "The thing I most welcome - the apocalypse." | |Gavin Hills: "Invade my space, compact my disc, shrink my knob and turn me |into a blue hedgity-hog." | |Night, all. -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ From: ahawks (ravE on) Subject: Who Had Agrippa Archived on FTP? Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 17:19:05 MST Whoever has Agrippa archived at an FTP site, please let me know... Thanx in advance.... -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 16:59:37 PST From: mark@ganymede.apple.com (Mark Baldwin) Subject: Re: Details Article :: It all comes down to your reasons for being in to what you're :: into...My friend, obviously, is concerned about staying on the edge :: and sacrificing his own happiness to an extent to do so....It's fine :: with me, too.... :: :: It all comes down to where do you put yourself in the cultural-curve - :: is it ok to stay a step ahead AND a step behind? is it ok to be :: mainstream? :: :: Naturally, a lot of people will say "yes", beause it's sort of a taboo :: to be stylish and into subcultures before they hit mainstream, for :: some dumb reason.... :: :: My opinion is, whether you're making the curve, following the curve, :: or riding the crest of the curve, all have their purpose, none is :: better than the other - you can't have leaders w/o followers and vice :: versa.... :: :: People have been saying that cyberpunk is out since 1984.....Welp, the :: cyberpunk crowd continues to be near that forefront of the curve, :: because the new edge is filled with inquisitive creative open minds :: that constantly morph their thoughts....The more mainstream you get, :: the dsmaller the proportion of morph-ers are out there, and the more :: mallmuffs, thus the culture starts to die....In the meantime, those at Wait a minute...is this conversation REALLY occuring??? -mark. ______________________________ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:45:53 -0800 (PST) From: Loveweasle Subject: #future hey I've been hearing about the sunday c0nversation on #future. one Question however: what Time is it? Thanks in advance for yer help. fisel@eskimo.com ------------------------------------------------------- Down in a hole and they've put all the stones in their place I've eaten the sun so my tongue has been burned from the taste I have been guilty of kicking myself in the teeth I will speak no more of my feelings beneath -Jerry Cantrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------ god i'm such a conformist with these sigs ______________________________ From: ahawks (gogo is insane) Subject: Who's Who of the InterNet Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 22:24:01 MST Just about done with the FAQ.... One of the sections is a "who's who" of on-line 'celebrities', and appears in the file like this: V. Important Person Musician/Author John Q. NetPublic Hacker/Writer So, if you are someone who would like to be mentioned in the file (no email addrresses are given out), or if you know of someone who you feel garners recognition, please send relevant info. (including a basic summary of credentials in-case I fall knowledge-impaired) to: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu I am looking for on-line people from all walks of life, including: hackers (in the underground sense), writers, magazine editors, artists, musicians, DJs, NetGurus, authors, or any other characteristic that might seperate onesself from the mass.net.public. Thanks in advance. -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 00:28:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth Schwartz Subject: Who's Who of the InterNet alt.folklore.computers has something like a 1000-person whos.who.on.the.net list. I don't know if it is archived but it reappears there periodically Add one little bit on the end... Think of 'potato,' how's it spelled? You're right phonetically, but what else...? There ya go...alright! -- Vice President Dan Quayle correcting a student's correct spelling of the word 'potatoe' during a spelling bee at an elementary school in Trenton. _________________________________________________________________________ | | | That's all for today! | | To send a message to the list: future@nyx.cs.du.edu | | To subscribe/unsubscribe/change format: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | All other requests: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | List Maintainer is: (andy [aka hawkeye]) ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu | |_________________________________________________________________________| | | | The opinions expressed in FutureCulture are those of the individual | | author only. | |_________________________________________________________________________|