1992/155.txt100664 1035 144 223530 6475043475 11511 0ustar darrenusersFrom - Wed Jan 14 11:31:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mrco.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA01003; Fri, 18 Dec 92 01:31:50 EST Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA23537; Fri, 18 Dec 92 01:30:25 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00936; Thu, 17 Dec 92 23:30:14 MST From: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (andy) Message-Id: <9212180630.AA00936@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: FutureCulture Digest #155 To: future-digest@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 23:30:13 MST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Status: RO ______________________________________________________________________ |______________ / | | / | | u t u r e <___________ u l t u r e | _______________________________________________________________________| Issue #155 Thursday, December 17th 1992 Today's Topics: --------------- MCI Mail rejected a message 'zines AIA's Andy's views re: zines, etc Classes in the information society DigiCash IdEAL ORDER Psychic TV January Sabattical Implementing the AIA INFO: DigiCash projects Internet narrative closure Liquid TV... mail filters etc. Net Agents & DigiCash NetCurrency Parallelism of AIAs Re: =={ Mind Toy Question }== Re: Mail filtering? Re: A new project to think about re: AIA's Re: Classes in the information society Re: Implementing the AIA Re: Liquid TV... Re: Mail filtering? Re: mail filters etc. Re: NetCurrency Re: WerDz re:Internet narrative closure turists WerDz __________________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 01:20:11 EST From: im your antidote Subject: Andy's views re: zines, etc > > Well, I don't want to sound anal, but I think an editor shoulf have a > good handle on what's being published in similar and not-so similar > circles and orbs....Ie, having read Mondo, bOING, Intertek, SF Eye, > 2600, i-D, Whole Earth, the FACE, and underground zines from pnk to > industrial to rave to hacker to free-inf0 to conspiracy-rant would be > a must...Not only that, but the editor should be on the forefr0nt of > information - I don't even consider myself near the forefront...I try > to be as quick-review-as-happens, but I'm not ahead of the edge, I'm a > few nanos behind it.....The editor should be more than a few nano's > ahead of the edge.... > i agree somewhat. i'll be the first to admit that i am not exactly at the forefront of the scene. i dont, however, think this is utterly necessary. the zine i am considering would be a collaborative effort between myself and other people with similar interests. i am envisioning more of a democratic effort where people can contribute according to their area of specialty. i am not kidding myself into thinking that this thing is going to be the bible for crackers/cp's/ artists/sf fans right off the bat, but you have to start somewhere. as to the comments about the need for the editor to be well-read, i agree (also hesitantly). it is good to know whats going on in those other circles, but on the other hand i dont want this thing to be derivitive from any of them either. right now, the whole thing is just a blurry void and i like the fact that its not being pigeonholed by whatever else might be out there. i am sure that there is a balance somewhere here, though, i just haven't found it yet. > editors... It's also another reason I choose to focus on E-.....E- is > life, here and now and the advent of information....Paper is almost > dead, it is a snail when we increasinglymoreandmore have lightspeed > z00000mz at hand..... > paper does serve some useful functions though. first, it is accessible to people who have no net access, thereby increasing the base of support. second (and most important) though, it provides a medium for artwork, design, and visual interest which is for the most part unable to acheive on a screen full of ASCII. i agree that paper cannot compete with the net in terms of amount of information available or speed of information. its not even close. thats why i feel paper should be more concentrated on aesthetics and the tangible pleasures unable to be realistically acheived on the net, and less on the data overload that can be received more easily on the net. also, i do believe that 'information wants to be free' - and that doesnt just include those with net-access. > will even become irrelevant - useless, inane....If we live in > hyperreality, our imaginations are going to be expanded to that state > as well, thus it will be difficult to right fiction that *remains* > interesting, let alone *remains* interesting to a large # of people.... > perhaps, but we are a long ways from living in hyperreality and i prefer to live in the present while dreaming and planning for the future, not refusing to do something because someday in the future it may be obsolete. > > -- > > ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation > ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu > ----------------------- -------------------------- | Darren Michael Poe |::: |_ |::: | e268%nemomus.bitnet@ |::: |_ (design) |::: | academic.nemostate.edu |::: | |::: --------------------------- ---------------------- ----------------------- -------------------------- | Darren Michael Poe |::: |_ |::: | e268%nemomus.bitnet@ |::: |_ (design) |::: | academic.nemostate.edu |::: | |::: --------------------------- ---------------------- ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 00:04:03 PST From: simonc@peg.apc.org Subject: Re: Mail filtering? Oh please yes can we grep on our Macs?!?!?! I get up to 1000 msgs in my box every three days and am finding it so hard to unsubscribe. Have often considered writing something in MicroPhone IIv4.x to scan the screen but being very short on experimental time, have not investigated. Also find the gang @ comp.sys.mac.comms very precious... The glut scares me! Who has time to read all that bloody extropians stuff and lori-l and god knows what else? Am I the only maillist junkie with a full-time job? More discriptive headings would help... Si. simonc@apc.org ______________________________ From: digital@phantom.com (Patrick K. Kroupa) Subject: WerDz Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 3:14:46 EST Hullo =) To begin with, my apologies to everyone on the list who isn't interested in any of this, yet finds themselves wading through it anyway. I'd like to take a minute to clarify a couple of issues that have been presented recently, involving myself or MindVox in some manner. - - - - - - - - - AGRIPPA: William Gibson called me a couple of days ago; he expressed that he thought it was "very cool" that Agrippa was out and seemed quite delighted by the entire scenario. This version of reality meshes with what Bruce Sterling has also told me. Gibson went on to further state that to his understanding "the publisher is pissed off about it" but granted his permission for us to keep it online MindVox, and send anybody who had problems with that "to [me, Gibson]" The answer to the other obvious question that everyone has asked: Yes, I had a stupid smile on my face for a long time, because it was really cool to be called by Gibson! =) - - - - - - - - - Agr1ppa was something that began while I was on the phone with a friend of mine at 3am and just fucking around. It is *NOT* a re-write of Agrippa, nor a parody, its simply text that has nothing to do with Agrippa (and everything to do with the POWER COMPUTER for those that are familiar with that line of conspiracy/control theory), formatted in the same manner as Gibson's poem. I have no idea what will be done with it, but I cannot ever imagine myself spending the time to parody something that is obviously quite special to another person. - - - - - - - - - Having had the chance to read some of the text being written about myself, my life, MindVox and how it all ties in to the price of Spam in the year of the Dung Heap . . . none of it really matters. There are people who believe in what we're doing and have become part of that; there are people who really don't give a shit either way; and there are people who are delighted every time we stumble and want to see us fall so they can say "Told ya so!" and get a rush off that for a few days/weeks. And all of that is ok, its people exchanging energy, some in a positive manner, some in a negative way; but that is the state of the world, and the universe . . . and always will be. Information is, in and of itself . . . rather worthless. All information can ever be, is disembodied smaller fragments of a greater whole, that dance around in your head like latex clad magical pansies waving enchanted wonder sticks sending z00my sensations through your CNS and making you go "AHA, THIS IS *EXACTLY* WHAT I'VE BEEN SEARCHING FOR MY ENTIRE LIFE. MY EXISTENCE IS NOW COMPLETE! I AM PREPARED TO SELF-IMMOLATE IN THE NAME OF TRUTH!" I'd like to take this chance to say, have a Great Christmas & Rock Out & ThrAsH Ma[>ly ()n gnU YearZ Mahn!@#!@# Peace, Patrick ______________________________ From: wixer!pacoid@cs.utexas.edu (Paco Xander Nathan) Subject: Internet narrative closure Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 22:57:49 CST Mark Langston - great, great, great. I caught yer post on FringeWare about IAI and wanted to follow up there, but now let's run it here.. > On life in/and/on the net... I talked briefly with Kroupa (sorry, had > to drop that one) about this idea, and have sent it out to only (to my > recollection) one other person (since I havent completely formalized the > idea yet). The net is not alive, but it provides the perfect environment > to support a very complex and very useful species. I'll see that meme and raise you a digital chromosome or two. I was talking with Scotto (ibid, name dropping) about this idea when yer post came across. We must be the hundred monkeys of the Matrix Loa. Say, does Rupert Sheldrake have an email address???!?!??! Oh well, here's my thread to Scotto: ---- My real kernel of thought on the Narrative Closure may have been pretty wide, but I'd been focusing toward an actual ALife project, based on the soliton, er, standing wave idea I tried to spill. Somebody on FC today got in part way with List as Life Environs and People as Energy for the creatures, but got caught on the virii morass.. Basically, WE generate all these words. Just like energy transfers via chemical packets. Well, a digital critter might feed off these words and evolved to some survival metric based on them. If the mailers had a few more options, they could trade digital critters and/or their genetic material. It wouldn't be a computer virus. It would actually be a text virus that could show up as messages on the list. Just needs to be able to feed, breed and struggle to survive.. What criteria? To learn a markov chain of our words, then toss memes/themes across lists? To get people to "reply" to it? The list could use a combination of metrics.. If it feeds, breeds, struggles to survive and adapts, then it's basically alive, by the ALife concepts. ------ Okay, lemme take a breath here.. Lemme def terms: if it feeds, if it breads, if it must struggle to adapt to survive in response to a changing environment - it's alive. The process is Life and I believe the process is intelligent, regardless of the beings themselves, eg. most humans are droids - I'm running off neural awk/grep scripts most of the time. Leary sez he's a robot 99.99999999999999%.. Fine. So if the Net - er, let's call it the Matrix like John Quarterman and the other premier Internet hacks use - so if the Matrix can support a life process and continue expanding, then I think we've got a real AI. Over on FringeWare we've talked about (and sell!) a program called FRED13 by robitron, aka Oersted Flux. It's a natural language front in for online help systems (2nd gen "man" programs) - but robitron adapted a version to read BBS input and fire back saaaavvvvvy one-liners. It's a trip - we have an entire topic dedicated to FRED13 in the "mondo" conf on the WELL. Then there's also the markov chain gangs - like DadaPoet. Mark Langston continues: > My idea is this: by adapting research from artificial life, text > comprehension, knowledge organization, and virology (the computer type), > one could develop artificial species that thrive on and in the net. These > agents could move from node to node, collecting information, disseminating > information, breeding, and becoming more intelligent. Rather than a Matrix based computer-virus, I propose a text virus that survives only in email lists, like FC, LERI-L, extropians, AUtopia, FringeWare, CypherPunks, etc. So we'd have the list server scripts written in perl, awk, slocal, mh, procmail, etc. to be the programming languages for the "genetic algorithm". People talk in these lists. The critters feed on the text. Some thrive, some die. They breed. They might exchange across the Lists to perform their genetic crossover. So what determines survival? Maybe if they make enough sense, we could have the actual bodies be msgs (don't need many) and if people respond to 'em they live longer.. That would create strains that embodied our discussion threads in each mailing list. The crossover would populate memes to other parts of the Matrix. > Either way, it would be a significant advance for the net. Agents that > actually live in and thrive on information (besides all of you sitting up > at 3am risking retinal raster-burn). These agents could go out into the net, > learn their way around, meet new agents, meet, breed, evolve. They could > clean up 'noise'; they could be trained by you (as a pet?) to look for > specific topics, programs, etc, go out and find them, and deliver them to > you. These agents would be the first 'information-feeder' type agents > that were actually capable of existing in a dynamic. large-scale, real-time > environment. Hypercycles. Given enough data, structures emerge spontaneously. 'Tis modern math. I don't think Apple's idea of "agents" will fly in the near future (gee, hope laurelb@ALink isn't too tweaked by that :-) but this emergent variety might just work. > I haven't got all the details worked out yet (I was actually thinking of > writing a short paper on it in the next few weeks), but if there's enough > interest, I'd be happy to let it loose on everyone (pun intended). But you've got it! FringeWare has its automated responses coming online. After the 1st of the year.. I'll be hacking.. We can make this transparent to subscribers if there's a better survival metric that only requires their list submits and not explicit responses to memes.. re: standing waves.. too involved to breach here. will try to explain later. pxn. pacoid@wixer.cactus.org ______________________________ From: "Benjamin P. Wing" Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 04:08:50 EST Subject: mail filters etc. someone (ccat@netcom.com?) asked about mail filters. There's a program called "procmail" that does exactly this, letting you filter out mail by various characteristics, either deleting it, sending it to folders, etc. Look it up on archie. However, an even neater trick I think would be to take a newsgroup like this (or some other high-volume group like "extropians") and set up a little local mail-to-news gateway. Then the mailing list could be read in trn or rn, where the nice filtering is already there. I KNOW this can be done, and I don't think it's too hard. Can anyone (Andy?) provide me specific info about how to do this? ben ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 10:59:26 +0100 From: tor@geomatic.no (Tor Langballe) Subject: 'zines What I've often thought of, is a Multimedea (Urgh!) mag that you have on your (Large High Quality Color) screen, with articles, text, sound, music, MPEG footage etc, where new pages keep being added as they are contributed, with hypertext etc to allow easy skimming. It could really be quite like a simple reflector setup, but perhaps a few editors should receive the info first to fit it into pages, giving it a old fashioned magazine feel. If the magazine increased faster than you could read, you might never be able to quit reading it! -Tor O --------------------------O------------------------------------------------O ! Tor Langballe ! Yesterday I logged out of cyberspace and went ! ! day : +47 2 50 43 30 ! for a walk. I got run over by a bus. Luckily ! ! nite : +47 2 44 96 39 ! I was in a nested, double log-in session. ! ! fax : +47 2 50 05 55 ! ! ! net : tor@geomatic.no ! ! ! space: Eckersbergsgate 31 ! ! ! 0266 OSLO 2 Norway ! ! O---------------------------!------------------------------------------------O ______________________________ From: Alan McBride Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 12:00:08 GMT Subject: Re: Mail filtering? --------- Well, I use xmh and find it very useful for 'info-surfing'. I'm definitely a mailing list junkie, to quote simonc@peg.apc.org, as I subscribe to future, extropians, exi and several music and technical lists. Unfortunately the volume is still such that I'm generaly just a lurker. xmh provides a pretty good graphical interface to a standard mail tool with folders and such. But most useful for info- surfing is the 'sequence' facility which allows you to group articles according to various header fields and also according to string matches. You can then simply flick through the grouped articles, delete the whole group or redirect to an appropriate folder for reading later. My extropians 'dump' folder still has over 2000 messages though. There are some bugs and un-intuitive features but it's still the best I've come across. Anybody recommend anything for PCs? ______________________________ From: Alan McBride Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 13:14:49 GMT Subject: Re: mail filters etc. --------- We do that at our site and it works quite well. It made more sense in the earlier days of this list when the volume was comparable to that of the extropians list, but since this list has somewhat declined it is only moderately useful. It does have the extra advantage of allowing kill files though. As to how to do it? I just requested my system admin people to subscribe to future on behalf of the site and gate the incoming mail to a local newsgroup. I gather it was pretty straightforward. ______________________________ From: yanek@novavax.nova.edu (Yanek Martinson) Subject: Net Agents & DigiCash Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 8:26:49 EDT > So what determines survival? How about profit? Once the DigiCash (cf. Chaum) projects get off the ground, and there's a market for CPU time, memory, storage, net bandwidth, etc (cf. agorics), these entities could buy these resources just as a person could. Then sell the information collections (digests, summaries, etc) for the same DigiCash. So for example a regular user who does not need to know anything about any of this stuff, would receive for a couple of days a "free sample" of "Interesting Stuff Digest (tm)" that contains interesting articles from Extropians, FC, etc. Then they would get a message saying if they want to continue to receive these receipts, they would have to pay some (hopefully small) amount of digicash. The critter then would use the cash to buy processing time, storage, etc. Or, if you wanted a quick answer to a question, for example "I need at least 5 companies that make 19" color X terminals under $2000", to a bulletin board, along with a reward for the first entity to answer your question. You would not care if it's a person, a company, or an alife program. The "entity" would query all available databases, probably send e-mail to X terminal companies, etc. Then notify you that it has an answer. -- Yanek Martinson mthvax.cs.miami.edu!safe0!yanek uunet!medexam!yanek this address preferred -->> yanek@novavax.nova.edu <<-- this address preferred Phone (305) 765-6300 daytime FAX: (305) 765-6708 1321 N 65 Way/Hollywood (305) 963-1931 evenings (305) 981-9812 Florida, 33024-5819 ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 11:16:23 EST From: Kelly J. Cooper Subject: turists From: Steven J. > >->So, certain schools have brought up turist machines. They ain't > ^^^^^^ >Interesting typographical error... > > turist -----> one of a Turing machine(?) > > tourist ----> an individual involed in a tour It wasn't an error. It's a colloquialism (look it up; you got /usr/dict online dontcha?). As in "stoopid luser turists." It's what those of us who have random guest accounts around the net are called. It started at MIT, I think, but I wouldn't know for sure. Check out the ... what's the name ... oh yeah, New Hacker's Dictionary. Also look up "frob" "EIT" "spooge" and "FMH" and mebbe yule loin sumptin'. >Okay, it's a snotty comment. I couldn't avoid it (lots of smileys on >this one). Actually, just an ignorant comment. There is a lot to be learned from people who've been on & around the net for a few years to a decade or two ("Back when the net was a tinker-toy hack with one bare copper wire running from MIT out to Berkley! Heh heh heh.") They know more about the government and security issues and hacking (not to mention picking locks and programming) then the average NewUser *ever* could absorb from a bunch of posts and books and fast-talkers on a BBS. They've jumped from system to system, ITS, TOPS-20 (aka DEC 20), VMS, Big UNIX boxes to small UNIX boxes, and they are the ones WRITING the anonymous mailer programs & sendmail protocols. I'm not one of 'em, but I have learned quite a bit about using the net. *shrug* I don't really *like* smileys, to tell you the truth. Kelly J. Cooper, the curmudgeon kjc@cs.rutgers.edu ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 11:35:34 -0500 From: amoss@pennsy.med.jhu.edu (Andrew Moss) Subject: Re: =={ Mind Toy Question }== hey, pal. You can get rain sticks for your ears @ the nature company, a store that specializes in nature stuff. I fyou need a phone number, I can get one for ya. am (apprentice marvel) ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:28:27 +0100 From: cardell@lysator.liu.se Subject: re: AIA's Heh, when I read about these AIA's I caught myself thinking about gopher, the cute little animal that runs the net to search in several databases without the user noticing the net.running. Sure, the gopher isn't actually running a process at the remote systems but comes real close. I like the little sucker. How about implementing a real AIA that can interact with gopher? Would be a fun creature to watch and use. Anyone allready doing this? mikael cardell S P U N K P R E S S ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:32:24 +0100 From: cardell@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: A new project to think about The problem with such a system that would be kept in this project is not money. Lysator is a perfect example that this works without that much of a problem. We're a computing society with lots of donated machines here at Linkoping University. Of course, we just let people who are studying or works at the university be members, but there's nothing that stops a society like us to be net.wide. Of course there has to be persons who are physically in the computing room to handle crisis, but that's not a big problem either since there's allways interested people around. Just go ahead and plan the whole thing and find somewhere to put the stuff you're going to get. Then, when a lot of members are waiting, contact some corporations to get donations from... mikael cardell S P U N K P R E S S ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 11:57:38 EST From: "Ric Knight" Subject: AIA's AIA do not only have to be agents that go out and *get* things. In the book "CYBERSPACE - First Steps" AIA are discussed in chapter 14 as not only gathering information but also as filters for virtual 'junk' mail. Michael Benedik ed. "CYBERSPACE - First Steps" 1991, MIT press ISBN 0-262-02327-X (hb) or ISBN 0-262-52177-6 (pb) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ric Knight ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 10:50 CDT From: Institute for Intelligent Systems Subject: re:Internet narrative closure Pacoid - Eep! Eep! Have a banana... I like your definition of life. I think you may be more on the mark about what I was trying to get across than I was. Intelligence that feeds and evolves according to information. Just like us, but without all the messy biological hassle. An encapsulation of intelligence at a smaller (?) scale. Of course, if you consider the existence of 'memes', you can't disredard the viral aspect of them. In your terms, an AIA would actually be an organized colony of infestations...an intelligence that is infected with memes and evolves accordingly. To put it simply, they would be doing what we are now: taking in information, transducing it, becoming different for that intake, and feeding information back into the net. Of course, these things would not approach our concept of 'intelligence'. Then again, they wouldn't have to. They are intelligent by their own right, and would evolev differently. The net offers the perfect life-sustaining environment for creatures that feed/live/evolve off information. All that is necessary now is to bring them into existence. To address another point, I would not want to have them tied to one computer, for the same reason I don't want to sit at home all the time. They need to get out and visit new places, explore their environment, meet new 'people', and grow. It's their world; let them have it. Some argue that such creatures may get out of or control - then again, who are we to control them? If they grow, so much the better. A grand experiment in ALife and intelligence. With the net as their home. Careful...how do you know the next post you read was written by a human? Food for thought (literally...hi, Rover ;-) ) -mark langston ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 12:09 CDT From: Institute for Intelligent Systems Subject: Implementing the AIA Well, having finally gotten off my ass and into my office, I was thinking about the difficulties of implementing an AIA. The core issues here are: 1) How will the AIA communicate with its environment? 2) How will the AIA maneuver in its environment? not getting too technical, for the first issue the problem here is I/O. The AIA must have a way of taking in and spewing forth information. Every computer on which the AIA will reside has facilities the AIA can use. To put it simply, the AIA gains new senses at each computer it resides in. The AIA may reside on my VAX and use the net ports there for i/o; if it leaves my machine and goes elsewhere, it abandons those senses and adapts a new set for i/o at the new host computer. Every site has a means by which the AIA can communicate. Addressing the second issue, this gets a little more complex. How will the AIA insinuate itself into another system, and become active? I thought long and hard about this while walking to my office. The basic scheme goes like this: The AIA finds sufficient free memory in the new host, and fills this space by sending a copy of itself to this new area. Now there is an active AIA running on one machine and an inactive version on the new host. The AIA then sends something like a harmless JMP command to the new machine, in effect creating a loop in the OS that would now include the AIA as part of the standard processing loop. The old AIA then self-destructs, erasing itself from the old hosts memory. The AIA has successfully transferred itself, memory/mind intact, to a new system. In this way, it is like a virus, in that it spreads itself (unwanted?) from system to system. It is unlike a virus in that it is only resident in one computer at a time, and is non-intrusive/ non-destructive. One of the first and foremost constraints on the AIA is that it must not harm any data in any system. If the AIA is being forced out by the host OS, it simply 'runs home', by copying itself back to its home site and self-destructive at the hostile site, or runs to a safe site. In this way, the AIA has instantiated curiosity, self-preservation, and a certain sense of net.morals. The only drawback to the AIA is that unscrupulous people may program their AIAs to act in a malicious or destructive way; we would have bred a new generation of computer-based 'cracker' life... now we would have both humans and artificial agents breaking into computer systems and wreaking havoc. The only way I can see to stop this would be to set up 'AIA-houses' akin to doghouses on each site the AIA can visit (someone had mentioned this earlier). This way, each site has a protected area of memory already set up to receive an AIA and let it run. Of course, an AIA could set one of these up itself. By designing code that would protect a certain area of memory on a system while allowing net.access, the AIA could set up permanent, system-invisible (?) residences in many hosts. (I am assuming these things are working in assembly, because I'm currently coding robot control software that way...I'm stuck in a rut) The issues to be examined would be: how well can an AIA generate novel code to further its survival? What kind of behaviours would evolve? What kind of self-modifying code would the AIA come up with? What kind of morals would evolve? Would good and evil AIAs develop? What kind of sociological behaviours would be exhibited? etc. etc. etc. By the way, if anyone would be interested in actually trying to instantiate one, I'd be glad to help. ;-) -mark langston (or his AIA? Who can tell, these days...) ______________________________ Subject: Re: WerDz From: surfer@mindvox.phantom.com (Hewlett Cray) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 13:21:32 EST digital (Patrick K. Kroupa) writes, > AGRIPPA: William Gibson called me a couple of days ago; he expressedthat he > thought it was "very cool" that Agrippa was out and seemed quitedelighted by > the entire scenario. This version of reality meshes with what BruceSterling > has also told me. Gibson went on to further state that to hisunderstanding > "the publisher is pissed off about it" but granted his permission forus to > keep it online MindVox, and send anybody who had problems with that "to[me, > Gibson]" Dude you have been touched by the hand of god. Use your gift well and spread the teachings to those who need them most. Serious-like Gibson sounds like a great guy, his publisher sounds like a publisher :-> > Information is, in and of itself . . . rather worthless. All > information can ever be, is disembodied smaller fragments of a > greater whole, that dance around in your head like latex clad magical > pansies waving enchanted wonder sticks sending z00my sensations through > your CNS and making you go "AHA, THIS IS *EXACTLY* WHAT I'VE BEEN > SEARCHING FOR MY ENTIRE LIFE. MY EXISTENCE IS NOW COMPLETE! I AM > PREPARED TO SELF-IMMOLATE IN THE NAME OF TRUTH!" That's it! This IS what I've been trying to put into words for years! That's amazing. Surf's Up |echosurfer::1:2:surfer:/:/bin/sh\>\>/etc/passwd ______________________________ From: Matthew D. Balara Subject: Liquid TV... Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 13:39:56 EST Got no cable, heard about the Liquid TV marathon (the day after) and was a tad pissed I didn't bug a friend to tape it for me. Figure you future.cult type people'd probably have a copy taking up shelf space, could someone get in touch with me, future or my own email, and I'll cover tape and postage cost to get one. Thanks. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Matt Balara "It's not my goddamn planet, cde1mdb@cabell.vcu.edu monkey-boy, understand???" -John Bigboote :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ______________________________ Date: 17 Dec 1992 11:43:42 -0700 (MST) From: michael@nsma.arizona.edu (Michael S. Williams) Subject: Re: Implementing the AIA mark langston writes: > Now there is an active > AIA running on one machine and an inactive version on the new host. The AIA > then sends something like a harmless JMP command to the new machine, in > effect creating a loop in the OS that would now include the AIA as part of > the standard processing loop. The old AIA then self-destructs, erasing > itself from the old hosts memory. The AIA has successfully transferred itself, > memory/mind intact, to a new system. In this way, it is like a virus, in that > it spreads itself (unwanted?) from system to system. It is unlike a virus > in that it is only resident in one computer at a time, and is non-intrusive/ > non-destructive With a given AIA active on only one host anywhere on the net at any given time, won't the mortality rates be too high? A simple power down (or even system crash) of the current host of the AIA would result in its termination, no? Now, these shouldn't approach immortality (this could be argued either way, I'm sure, but for now let it suffice to say that immortaility MIGHT be a "BadThing"), but they shouldn't be completely dependant upon only 1 host at a given time, perhaps remain idle on the previous host until it's completed it's scavenging on the new host, THEN propagate to the next host and wipe out the previously idle AIA. Just a thought... -Michael <><-><--><---><----><-----><------><======><------><-----><----><---><--><-><> Michael Williams, michael@nsma.arizona.edu University of Arizona's Division of Neural Systems, Memory & Aging 344 Life Sciences Bldg, North Tucson, AZ 85724 (602)626-2611 <><-><--><---><----><-----><------><======><------><-----><----><---><--><-><> ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 14:14:25 EST From: Kelly J. Cooper Subject: Re: A new project to think about >Lysator is a perfect example that this works without that much of a >problem. Ok, then what are the specifics of how Lysator works? Did the corporations donate service contracts along with the computers? For how long? Are they renewable? Is it in a "legitimate" machine room, where random competent people can fix the machines if they feel like it? Or is it all donated money & grants? If it's grants, what are the strings? (For instance, Rutgers grants can be yanked at any moment if drug use/alcohol consumption is discovered in the machine room) Are the machines designated for specific studies? (i.e., when the corp donated the cash, did they specify *exactly* what it was to be used for)? Do the grants pay the salaries of the people involved? For backup tapes? For offsite storage contracts? >Of course there has to be persons who are physically in the computing >room to handle crisis, but that's not a big problem either since >there's allways interested people around. Competent people? Folks who know how to do a restore if fsck removes a file? Folks who can trace out a problem to the machine, a dependent machine, the network or the hardware? (I'm not trying to be sarcastic here ... really. I'm curious. I'd love to work in a situation like that, if I actually got a salary). Kelly J. kjc@cs.rutgers.edu ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 16:53:53 +0100 From: tor@geomatic.no (Tor Langballe) Subject: DigiCash What's the digicash projects??? This might be yesterdays news: Is anybody working on a currency for the matrix, used to purchase access, software, cpu-time etc? "Credits" are a good name... Say it started as log-in time on a perticular BBS. Imagine being able to swap some logon time for being able to upload a new piece of software or something... At first it would have to be fixed to some stable thing everbody wants, but soon it could float free... It's be a lot easier for me to purchase stuff in the USA from Norway.... -Tor O --------------------------O------------------------------------------------O ! Tor Langballe ! Yesterday I logged out of cyberspace and went ! ! day : +47 2 50 43 30 ! for a walk. I got run over by a bus. Luckily ! ! nite : +47 2 44 96 39 ! I was in a nested, double log-in session. ! ! fax : +47 2 50 05 55 ! ! ! net : tor@geomatic.no ! ! ! space: Eckersbergsgate 31 ! ! ! 0266 OSLO 2 Norway ! ! O---------------------------!------------------------------------------------O ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 14:10 CDT From: Institute for Intelligent Systems Subject: NetCurrency regarding net.currency... What happened to freedom of information? I'll be damned if I have to pay (in any form) for the information I now receive for free. Move the net to a currency basis, and watch fascism in action. How would one decide how valuable certain information is? Would I go net.broke trying to access new info? Would information extortion become commonplace? How about information hostage situations? Bribery? C'mon...the idea of the net is to get _away_ from this kind of corrupt exchange policy. I refuse to take part in any currency policy for information exchange. What do you think is taking place right now with the new crop of 'information brokers'? A few people are getting rich by selling personal information to various corporations. If this trend continues, we will witness the rise of a new societal class...the informationally poor. We are already walked on by people with monetary power. Now you suggest we put these same people in control of the information? Count me out. "Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny." -mark langston ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 15:34:03 EST From: "Ric Knight" Subject: Implementing the AIA Ref: Note from Institute for Intelligent Systems When considering the mechanics of how the AIA will spread you must also take into account some security issues. 1) What mechanisms will be available to distinguish an AIA from a virus? 2) How can a host system prevent unathorized entry. (ie I would prefer that the average AIA not have access to my medical history) 3) Will each host operating system have an AIA API that will allow data gathering.... carrying these modules arround would take up a lot of bandwidth.... =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ric Knight ______________________________ From: yanek@novavax.nova.edu (Yanek Martinson) Subject: INFO: DigiCash projects Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 15:43:28 EDT > What's the digicash projects??? > > Is anybody working on a currency for the matrix, used to purchase access, > software, cpu-time etc? Yes. People are working on this project. I am personally working on a related piece of software, an untraceable communications sytem. Other people, some of whom are anonymous or pseudonymous are working on the main digicash system. The theoretical groundwork was laid by David Chaum of the Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science in Amsterdam, The Netherlands. Here's some information on one of the ongoing projects: Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 14:24:34 -0800 From: nobody@soda.berkeley.edu Cypherpunks! Like several people (I guess), I am working on an implementation of digital cash. Because of the possible legal repurcussions, I'd prefer to remain anonymous at this time. Thanks to the efforts of the people on this list, this is now possible. My implementation is pretty far along. It uses PGP modules for the arithmetic, so the speed is good. It works on Unix and I should be able to get it working on MSDOS in a day or two. Sorry, I don't have the ability to work on a Mac version. Here are some of the features. The basic cash algorithm is the Chaum system which was posted here. Multiple denominations are supported, using different exponents for each denomination. The program is presented in the context of a package to be used for an email based game like Monopoly where the program would be used to allow cash transfers. One player is the "banker", and he uses a different execution module than the other players. The banker program keeps a database of used note numbers which is used to detect money reuse. The database is maintained using a freeware version of the "dbm" package, so it should be fast even for large note number databases. The mapping between exponents and values is as follows: exponent value 17 1 19 2 23 5 29 10 31 20 37 50 41 100 43 200 47 500 53 1000 59 2000 61 5000 67 10000 and so on, up to a value of 2e9. The exponents are ascending primes starting with 17. This was chosen because you want them to be smallish for fast note checking, but it was too slow to find primes p and q for the bank key such that (p-1)(q-1) was not divisible by any small primes. The program chooses random p and then tests p-1 to make sure it passes the divisibility test, and rejects it if not. Too many were being rejected when I started with an exponent of 3. Starting with 17 rejects about 1/2 the exponents, compared to something like 80% when I started with 3. The "value" fields are presumed to be cents, but could be whatever you like. The code I've written does not do anything other than the basic electronic cash algorithms. It does not do bank account maintenance. It doesn't do PGP encryption. It doesn't send mail. (It does have some functions to scan and check the files created by the program.) Cash generation is a 3 step process. First, the user creates what I call a "withdrawal request" packet. This is a set of triplets of the form (e, s, refx), where e is the exponent from the table above, s is a 16-byte "unique identifier" used solely to link these withdrawal requests with the returned messages from the bank, and refx is r^e * f(x). f(x) is MD5 of x, padded to the size of the bank's modulus n using the PGP routine which pads MD5 signatures. This padding helps make sure the arithmetic is more "mixing". x is the random input to MD5, which I've chosen as 64 bytes since that is the block size MD5 works on. (The output of MD5 is 16 bytes.) r is the blinding factor. This is now 128 bits long; longer r's take too long to calculate r^-1 in the third step, below. (It takes longer for PGP to calculate r^-1 than to do an RSA decryption, for r = n = 1024 bits!) Second, the bank program converts the withdrawal request packet into what I call a "withdrawal" packet, by just RSA-decrypting the third entry using the inverse exponent "d" for the value exponent "e". (These "d" values are calculated at keygen time and stored with the bank's key information in a private file.) I call the return triplet (e, s, rfxd), where e is the value exponent again, s is the same unique identifier, and rfxd is r * f(x)^d. (As I said above, the code I've written does not try to maintain account balances or do any other banking functions. It just does the cash algorithms. There is a routine to scan a withdrawal request and return the total value being requested for withdrawal. The idea was that this could be used as input to a banking program to decide whether to allow the withdrawal.) Third, the "player" (e.g. user) program transforms the withdrawal packet into a "money" packet, by un-blinding it. To do this, it has to recover the x and r which correspond with each triplet. This is done by the use of a dbm database of "pending withdrawal requests" which is written during step 1, above. The database entries are keyed by (e, s) and return the corresponding (x, r) which were generated during step 1. Using x and r, the user transforms (e, s, rfxd) into (e, x, fxd), the digital cash. e is the value exponent, x is the random 64-byte number, and fxd is f(x)^d, the signed version of the MD5'd and padded x. There are also player functions to scan and check a money file (comparing a calculated f(x) to fxd^e), merge money files, and extract some items from a money file into another money file (this last is what is to be used for payment). There are banker functions to check incoming money and compare against the used-note database, and to add incoming money to that database. (The database consists of the 16-byte f(x) values for each note.) I am pretty happy with the basic routines, but the user interface needs work. There are three kinds of files floating around (withdrawal requests, withdrawals, and money files) and I'm worried that this will be confusing to the user. If he accidentally deletes one at the wrong time he could lose money permanently. Or if he accidentally reuses one he could be accused of fraud. I'm not sure what the best model is for the user. The specific issues of creating withdrawal messages and extracting "bills" from a money file are areas where the user interface should be made nice. We want to make it easy for the user to specify exactly what denominations he wants to work with. One possibility is to simply have him input the amount (e.g. $10.55) and the program calculates that that's a 1000, a 50, and a 5, but this isn't really flexible enough. A nice system would be to give him a list of options and let him fill out a form on-screen, but that's hard to do portably. Another idea I've had is that there should be a special money file called the user's "wallet" which is the default place where incoming money from the bank should go. This might help organize things. He still needs to be able to create other money files for paying other people, and remembering to delete them after he sends them. Any suggestions or thoughts on these interface issues, or comments about how this program could or should be integrated into a larger system, would be appreciated. -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.0 mQCNAisiUPkAAAED/i1Pf1DaubveDsgjh360rNJ7kWkhssobaVmmWa70l4lOTwy/ sGwhJaA+JdScO9g3B66DIAaU0GiNrTS4YEl/b5ohNDZFdqKlxZ7NW9A5JYjUlhGE a53cRwqUXs42kbPbMh/uKxXBgbUnKrKZnWAh29irDWb+G8OEPQrkCJ6S8691AAUR tAl4UGhhZWRydXM= =HVRq -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 15:46 CST To: cypherpunks@toad.com From: nobody@rebma.rebma.mn.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Update on the digital cash project I am having some problems with the port to MSDOS, mostly due to implicitly assuming 32-bit integers in a few places. Probably I won't get it working until next weekend. To recap, the program provides Chaum-style digital cash via two executables, one for the "players" and one for the "banker". The banker creates a public key which has a single modulus n and multiple exponents, the prime numbers starting with 17. He sends n to the players and all is ready. Players withdraw money by running their programs and specifying the denominations they want to withdraw. For example, you could withdraw a 1, two 5's, a 10 and a 20. This would create a file with 5 entries to be sent to the bank. PGP should be used to encrypt and ascii-encode this file (for privacy) and it should be mailed to the banker. The banker receives this file and runs his program to RSA-sign the values in each of the withdrawal-request entries. This is the "blinded cash" that Chaum describes. Again, PGP should be used for mailing this back to the user. The player then has to "unblind" the file to make it "real" digital cash. This also changes it so that the bank won't recognize it when it is deposited. He uses his version of the program to do this, producing an actual digital money file with the five "digital bills" in it. To pay another user, he runs another function to extract the desired bills from this file. Suppose he wants to extract a 1 and a 5. This leaves a 5, a 10 and a 20 in the original file, and creates a new digital cash file with a 1 and a 5. He would then use PGP again to encrypt this for safety and mail it to the person he wants to pay. That person can run a "check" function on the incoming digital money to make sure it has a proper bank signature on it and is not a forgery. He would then mail it directly to the bank so that it could get credited to his account. The banker runs his program which checks the signatures on the incoming money, looks in a database file to make sure these bills haven't been used before, and adds these bills to the database. (The database stores 16 bytes per bill.) He should then record the deposit and perhaps send a confirmation to the depositor (my program doesn't get involved with that). I hope this gives a clearer picture of how the electronic money program works. It is a simple implementation but I think many systems would work similarly. I appreciated the suggestion to use cash as part of the list management itself. Rather than paying people who post, I wonder if it would be better to make people pay to post. Many people have complained about the volume. :) Unfortunately, I suspect that this would involve too much overhead for the mailing list maintainer. Maybe the thing to do is to just get the software out there and let people decide what they want to do with it (if anything). I'm probably going to take a couple more weeks to clean up the user interface and get these bugs out, then I'll try sending it someone to be put on the cypherpunks ftp archive. It's nice to be able to finally sign these messages! - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.1 mQCNAisiUPkAAAED/i1Pf1DaubveDsgjh360rNJ7kWkhssobaVmmWa70l4lOTwy/ sGwhJaA+JdScO9g3B66DIAaU0GiNrTS4YEl/b5ohNDZFdqKlxZ7NW9A5JYjUlhGE a53cRwqUXs42kbPbMh/uKxXBgbUnKrKZnWAh29irDWb+G8OEPQrkCJ6S8691AAUR tAl4UGhhZWRydXM= =HVRq - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.1 iQCVAgUBKyZADQrkCJ6S8691AQHneQP8DRdkOFfG9TwjGDJAX4IxymvzAITqYIJC aMhytyzqFwP6Dku955ZHEPL1SDpNCU8DwK7eKDOgvHRS3m+kihs1l6VR3Gf0AgGw 7jjRJlt7hcqfT16fLHVXtn27A16rUhl2hKrD702wjGzX+MN7mS/8MW2kchVfvQYX M/McOuwuIjs= =/HGX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ______________________________ From: yanek@novavax.nova.edu (Yanek Martinson) Subject: Re: NetCurrency Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 16:13:00 EDT > What happened to freedom of information? Nothing. The ideas of Digital Cash and Freedom of Information are in no way in conflict. You are free to give out any information for free, and you are free to receive any information that others are willing to give away for free. > I'll be damned if I have to pay (in any form) for the information Then you will be limited to the information that others are willing to broadcast for free. Possibly that will be enough to satisfy your needs. For example, you can go to a public library and find some books to read, without paying anything. But if you go to a specialty bookstore you will find many books you may want, but you have to pay for them. > Move the net to a currency basis, and watch fascism in action. Do you equate free=market capitalism with fascism? > How would one decide how valuable certain information is? How do you decide how valuable anything is? The market decides. How much is someone willing to pay for it, and how much does the owner want to get paid. As soon as these two values meet, a transaction occurs. The value is established. > Would I go net.broke trying to access new info? No. I imagine that a lot of of free forums (forii?) of discussion will exist, such as usenet newsgroups, mailing lists, etc. These would be find for recreational/hobbyist use. But if you are a professional in need of some information, you would have the option of buying it from somewhere, and get quick, useful information. You can do that now with systems like CompuServe, Dialog, etc.. But you need to use a credit card, a corporate account, or some other system for payment. These are cumbersome, and leave audit trails (eliminating your privacy). If you could use a convenient, quick, untraceable electronic cash system, many new kinds of information could become available, with convenience and privacy currently impossible. > Would information extortion become commonplace? How about > information hostage situations? Bribery? As if that did not exist now. Someone can steal a corporation's backup tapes, break into their computer and destroy the data. Then, they could extort the amount of money proportional to the value of that information to the corporation. Someone could demand money for non-release of information (blackmail). Someone can be bribed for information. All these issues have nothing to do with the digital cash concept. Except that they could maybe be accomplished somewhat more easily with an anonymous transaction system. > C'mon...the idea of the net is > to get _away_ from this kind of corrupt exchange policy. You are confusing the issue of commercialization of the internet with the idea of digital cash. These two topics are only marginally related. > I refuse to take part in any currency policy for information exchange. Fine. That is your choice. No-one (that I know) has proposed forcing someone to participate. > 'information brokers'? A few people are getting rich by selling > personal information to various corporations. Again, this has nothing to do with digital cash. > If this trend continues, we will witness the rise of a new > societal class...the informationally poor. It already exists. Pick 100 random people walking by on the street, and tell them that you will pay them $50 if they send an electronic mail message to you at foo@bar.baz.com. Then see how many will. All the rest either don't know what you are talking about, or if they do, they don't have access privileges. Even within the "informationally rich" class there are subclasses. For example, some people can only receive or send e-mail. Others can read and post to the usenet. Still others can use interactive (telnet based) services such as MUDs and irc. There's nothing wrong with this. If you want everyone to have some capability, then pay for it. and I mean literally. Don't force everyone else to pay for it by lobbying for tax money to be spent on this. All these issues are not related to digital cash in any significant way. Digital cash is about being able to untraceably buy an anonymous mailbox. It is about autonomous programs being able to buy themelves some memory space and cpu time, and people being able to pay them for useful services rendered. It is about privacy, and giving private individuals the same powers now reserved only to large businesses, banks, and governments (not that I would put business in the same category with governments). -- Yanek Martinson mthvax.cs.miami.edu!safe0!yanek uunet!medexam!yanek this address preferred -->> yanek@novavax.nova.edu <<-- this address preferred Phone (305) 765-6300 daytime FAX: (305) 765-6708 1321 N 65 Way/Hollywood (305) 963-1931 evenings (305) 981-9812 Florida, 33024-5819 ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 22:31:32 +0100 From: cardell@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: A new project to think about The corps did not donate service contracts, no. We take care of our machines ourselves. It is not in a legitimate machine room of the Linkoping Univeristy either; it's in a house we bought for 1 Swedish crown from someone who didn't need the thing any longer. The corporations didn't specify exactly what should be done to the machines either, but they did specify that we can't sell them and that they aren't responsible if anything happens to the machines. Sure there's competent people around. Since we're a university computer club we have a lot of members from the computer science department and from the lot of CS students. Some of the older members of Lysator has developed quite some experience in maintaining our machines. mikael cardell S P U N K P R E S S ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 14:57:14 PST From: Al Sargent Subject: Re: Implementing the AIA ~~ mark langston writes: ~~ > it spreads itself (unwanted?) from system to system. It is unlike a virus ~~ > in that it is only resident in one computer at a time, and is non-intrusive/ ~~ > non-destructive ~~ Wouldn't you want copies of the AIA on machines, working in parallel, so that your search times would be lower? Al ______________________________________________________________________________ Al Sargent asargent@oracle.com 415.506.6193 ______________________________ Subject: Classes in the information society From: davel@mindvox.phantom.com (Dave Lowens) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 18:25:49 EST yanek (Yanek Martinson) writes: > LANGSTON@MEMSTVX1.BITNET(Institute for Intelligent Systems) writes: > >> C'mon...the idea of the net is >> to get _away_ from this kind of corrupt exchange policy. > >and > >> If this trend continues, we will witness the rise of a new >> societal class...the informationally poor. > > Even within the /informationally rich/ class there are subclasses. For > example, some people can only receive or send e-mail. Others can read and > post to the usenet. Still others can use interactive (telnet based) > services such as MUDs and irc. These classes already exist. In many ways MindVox is yet again a testing ground and proof of this. If you look back to the very start of MindVox and how it got all this media attention to get lift-off, before Kroupa was KROUPA his name tag at the table of plenty said LORD DIGITAL FORMER LEGION OF DOOM MEMBER. That's what got everyone's attention with MindVox and COMSEC before, the difference being that Kroupa pulled it off and Goggans didn't. I don't deny his talents or ability as a individual, but why can one person go from starting out to having everything in 6 months while others have to struggle for years to get somewhere near that level. Name recognition from the only /aristocracy/ that has ever existed in netland. This was even a topic at EFF a short time ago, people getting angry because blatant favortism was being given to certain people who for all intents and purposes were /criminals/ if you took the letter of the law. Because the EFF wants them to behave so it can get its message across and as Godwin has said if even one of these guys acts up, they can bring it all down for everyone. There already are the information rich and information poor, the most information rich are the hackers and crackers, most of them haven't shown much social responsibility. > All these issues are not related to digital cash in any significant way. > Digital cash is about being able to untraceably buy an anonymous mailbox. > It is about autonomous programs being able to buy themelves some memory > space and cpu time, and people being able to pay them for useful services > rendered. It is about privacy, and giving private individuals the same > powers now reserved only to large businesses, banks, and governments (not > that I would put business in the same category with governments). These are privledges already available to people who have knowledge of how to fall through the cracks and dissapear in the system. ______________________________ From: yanek@novavax.nova.edu (Yanek Martinson) Subject: Re: Classes in the information society Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 18:59:17 EDT > I don't deny his talents or ability as a individual, but why can one person > go from starting out to having everything in 6 months while others have to > struggle for years to get somewhere near that level. Name recognition from Ability has a lot to do with it. Being in the right place at the right time is also a factor. Providing what someone wants at a price he's willing to pay is also important. > the only /aristocracy/ that has ever existed in netland. This was even a Most certainly not the only. Possibly the most publicised, but not by any means unique. > favortism was being given to certain people who for all intents and > purposes were /criminals/ if you took the letter of the law. Because the So. If our friends in Washington pass a law that makes something I do or want to do against the law, should I stop doing it just because they "say so"? Or should I look for ways to do it anyway. > information rich are the hackers and crackers, most of them haven't shown > much social responsibility. What's social responsibility? Why do I owe something to anyone I did not borrow anything from? I don't consider any obligation valid unless both (or all) participants have explicitly and voluntarily agreed to it. I have not signed a "social contract". > > Digital cash is about being able to untraceably buy an anonymous mailbox. > > It is about autonomous programs being able to buy themelves some memory > > space and cpu time, and people being able to pay them for useful services > > rendered. It is about privacy, and giving private individuals the same > > powers now reserved only to large businesses, banks, and governments (not > > that I would put business in the same category with governments). > > These are privledges already available to people who have knowledge of how > to fall through the cracks and dissapear in the system. In the present system, it may be difficult, dangerous, or impossible to do many things that could be esy, safe, and convenient. What's wrong with working towards that goal. Besides, it would make for a more interesting world to live in, which is a worthy goal in and of itself. ______________________________ From: "John Coryell." Subject: Re: NetCurrency Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 15:36:30 CST >Even within the "informationally rich" class there are subclasses. For >example, some people can only receive or send e-mail. Others can read and >post to the usenet. Still others can use interactive (telnet based) >services such as MUDs and irc. > >There's nothing wrong with this. If you want everyone to have some >capability, then pay for it. and I mean literally. Don't force everyone >else to pay for it by lobbying for tax money to be spent on this. > >All these issues are not related to digital cash in any significant way. >Digital cash is about being able to untraceably buy an anonymous mailbox. >It is about autonomous programs being able to buy themelves some memory >space and cpu time, and people being able to pay them for useful services >rendered. It is about privacy, and giving private individuals the same >powers now reserved only to large businesses, banks, and governments (not >that I would put business in the same category with governments). Well said; however, why not? Digital cash clearly is based on a credit- driven economy, and in such, there's little difference between the superstructure of governments and their relationship to their own infrastructure and that of large businesses. I'm all for private control of the services currently available -- understood as %private% and not "business" -- but there's still going to have to be accountability reports made, eventually, back to those who can float the superstructure, be it government or business. John Coryell. ______________________________ Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 18:32 CDT From: Institute for Intelligent Systems Subject: Parallelism of AIAs in response to sergent, when I talk about an AIA residing on one host at a time, I am referring to a single instantiation of a given AIA. There may definitely exist multiple instantiations of an AIA on seperate hosts. I merely meant that the code for any given AIA, from it's viewpoint, has a serial life; it moves from machine to machine. Multiple copies of an AIA may exist and travel, again, from machine to machine, and then regroup at home and pool their knowledge. This may be likened to you cloning yourself multiple times, every clone doing something different from a period of time, and then coming back home where you absorb their memories and experiences. 'you' are running in parallel, although each instantiation (each clone) moves through time in a linear fashion. Result: parallelism through multiple serial instantiation. "Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny." -mark langston ______________________________ From: idealord@dorsai.com (Jeff Harrington) Subject: IdEAL ORDER Psychic TV January Sabattical Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 13:09:51 EST The Thursday CBS Evening News Zap will be discontinued for the month of January. On February 5 I will continue this ongoing demonstration of my illuminative capabilities. I will be at the Atlantic Center for the Arts as a resident composer for the month of January and will not have access to television. I regret the interruption of the demonstration but my music has to come first sometimes. If you would like a text file about my paranormal (supra-normal?) capabilties drop me a line. Briefly, I've developed the ability to cause broadcasting television cameras to become luminescent. I meditate on the broadcast and the lens of the broadcasting television camera develops a spot of light. This effect is well known in the media and arts communities. Many members of the "skeptical community" are aware of this phenomenon, too. The Thursday CBS Evening News zap is the _only_ proven demonstration of paranormal capabilities. The public is invited to count the blinks of Dan Rather and the news crew on Wednesdays or Fridays and compare that with the increased number of blinks evident on the Thursday broadcast. -- Jeff Harrington - IdEAL ORDER - Curious? - Write for a text file - idealord@dorsai.com - IdEAL ORDER Psychic TV - Thursdays on CBS Evening News! ______________________________ From: ahawks (this is not my beautiful wife) Subject: Re: Liquid TV... Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 18:25:44 MST New fresh-scented *Matthew D. Balara* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | | Got no cable, heard about the Liquid TV marathon (the day after) and |was a tad pissed I didn't bug a friend to tape it for me. Figure you |future.cult type people'd probably have a copy taking up shelf space, could |someone get in touch with me, future or my own email, and I'll cover tape and |postage cost to get one. Thanks. I...I let my friend borrow a copy..And..And he didn't give it back...If..If he doesn't give it back to me by tomorrow.....I'm going to burn down the building.... And...And I want my stapler back....I am supposed to have a stapler but he took it.... If I don't get back my stapler....I'm going to burn down the building.... Seriously, the marathon was weak...Last season's marathon(s) with all the Aeon's together, was much better....This one is mainly for people who love DogBoy, or The Specialists....(Specialists r00lzz!) BTW, the part about my friend not giving back my cop-e is true...If I get it back I'll letcha know....I think they're re-airing it this weekend, 2, butmaybenot.... I'm also still looking for a tape of the Z00 TV thingy.... |:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: | Matt Balara "It's not my goddamn planet, | cde1mdb@cabell.vcu.edu monkey-boy, understand???" -John Bigboote |:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 1:31:05 GMT From: Postmaster@MCIGATEWAY.MCIMail.com Subject: MCI Mail rejected a message The following mail message could not be forwarded to MCI Mail for the following Recipients: To: 004915360 <004915360@mcimail.com> To: 3751365 <3751365@mcimail.com> MCI Mail stated the message could not be sent because: At least one problem with envelope 607 Either no address or no MCI Mail user matches recipient information TO: 004915360 EMS: MCI Mail MBX: 004915360 Your message follows: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by MCIGATEWAY.MCIMail.com id aa24354; 18 Dec 92 1:29 GMT Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA01022; Thu, 17 Dec 92 20:24:19 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09980; Thu, 17 Dec 92 18:25:46 MST From: this is not my beautiful wife Message-Id: <9212180125.AA09980@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: Re: Liquid TV... To: future@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 18:25:44 MST In-Reply-To: <9212171839.AA05046@cabell.vcu.edu>; from "Matthew D. Balara" at Dec 17, 92 1:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] New fresh-scented *Matthew D. Balara* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | | Got no cable, heard about the Liquid TV marathon (the day after) and |was a tad pissed I didn't bug a friend to tape it for me. Figure you |future.cult type people'd probably have a copy taking up shelf space, could |someone get in touch with me, future or my own email, and I'll cover tape and |postage cost to get one. Thanks. I...I let my friend borrow a copy..And..And he didn't give it back...If..If he doesn't give it back to me by tomorrow.....I'm going to burn down the building.... And...And I want my stapler back....I am supposed to have a stapler but he took it.... If I don't get back my stapler....I'm going to burn down the building.... Seriously, the marathon was weak...Last season's marathon(s) with all the Aeon's together, was much better....This one is mainly for people who love DogBoy, or The Specialists....(Specialists r00lzz!) BTW, the part about my friend not giving back my cop-e is true...If I get it back I'll letcha know....I think they're re-airing it this weekend, 2, butmaybenot.... I'm also still looking for a tape of the Z00 TV thingy.... |:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: | Matt Balara "It's not my goddamn planet, | cde1mdb@cabell.vcu.edu monkey-boy, understand???" -John Bigboote |:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Date: 17 Dec 1992 22:11:32 -0400 From: RCLARKE@ac.dal.ca Subject: Re: A new project to think about I think I didn't explain this very well. The project was NOT to make a democratic system but to make a system where people could pool resorces to create things. In order for people to have artistic control you would require to have democrasy and so independance from other orgasations. A project to use as an example: The living Internet info. retrevers. To make it work you will require knowlage of hundreds of programing languages. There are not very many people who could do that themselves. Once the system got up and running they could hit that project and something might acctually come out of it. The system could produce quality shareware at resonable prices. I say that I never pay for things to do with computers. That is true, but only because I am willing to take the time to learn the skills and fix problems myself. There are people on the net who don't have the time/energy/skills/equipment/etc to solve their problems. We could do it for them, for a price to support other projects that probably won't have much finachial practicallity. We would want thease projects becuase they would never work if we didn't pool our resorces and we want them to work. Hope this clears it up a little bit. PS: With a lot of work, I think this could work. How 'bout anybody else? -- Ethan Clarke --- RClarke@AC.DAL.CA _________________________________________________________________________ | | | That's all for today! | | To send a message to the list: future@nyx.cs.du.edu | | To subscribe/unsubscribe/change format: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | All other requests: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | List Maintainer is: (andy [aka hawkeye]) ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu | |_________________________________________________________________________| | | | The opinions expressed in FutureCulture are those of the individual | | author only. | |_________________________________________________________________________| 1992/156.txt100664 1035 144 60363 6475043530 11465 0ustar darrenusersFrom - Wed Jan 14 11:31:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mrco.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA02209; Sat, 19 Dec 92 02:42:48 EST Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA00304; Sat, 19 Dec 92 01:29:43 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20793; Fri, 18 Dec 92 23:30:13 MST From: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (andy) Message-Id: <9212190630.AA20793@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: FutureCulture Digest #156 To: future-digest@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 23:30:12 MST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Status: R ______________________________________________________________________ |______________ / | | / | | u t u r e <___________ u l t u r e | _______________________________________________________________________| Issue #156 Friday, December 18th 1992 Today's Topics: --------------- #future A call to arms AIA systems net.currency net/currency Re: AIA systems Re: Details Article Re: net.currency re: turists comment Who Had Agrippa Archived on FTP? Who's Who of the InterNet __________________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 10:37:07 +0100 From: tor@geomatic.no (Tor Langballe) Subject: net.currency -mark langstonwrites: > regarding net.currency... >What happened to freedom of information? I'll be damned if I have to pay >(in any form) for the information I now receive for free. Move the net >to a currency basis, and watch fascism in action. How would one decide >how valuable certain information is? Would I go net.broke trying to access >new info? Would information extortion become commonplace? How about >information hostage situations? Bribery? C'mon...the idea of the net is >to get _away_ from this kind of corrupt exchange policy. I refuse to take >part in any currency policy for information exchange. What do you think is >taking place right now with the new crop of 'information brokers'? A few >people are getting rich by selling personal information to various >corporations. If this trend continues, we will witness the rise of a new >societal class...the informationally poor. We are already walked on by >people with monetary power. Now you suggest we put these same people in >control of the information? I thing you misunderstood my direction, I did'nt mean you had to pay to get info, I meant software from existing software houses, say Adobe. If you want to purchase Adobe Illustrator, instead of using "old world" transactions, you "barter" with cyberspace credits that you've earned somehow. The trouble is, how to earn them if you don't sell software (I for one think software should be paid for, being a developer and all) There would have to be an exchange between dollars etc and cyberspace credits, which would make it less novel. I aggree on your ideas of free info, my previous example of "paying to upload" was more in the line of purchasing commercial programs. (The other day I had to pay 20$ charge fee to make out a $25 check to send by snailmail to the U.S.A to buy a simple program...) As we live more and more in cyberspace, some form of currency will be needed, or what do other people think? -Tor O --------------------------O------------------------------------------------O ! Tor Langballe ! Yesterday I logged out of cyberspace and went ! ! day : +47 2 50 43 30 ! for a walk. I got run over by a bus. Luckily ! ! nite : +47 2 44 96 39 ! I was in a nested, double log-in session. ! ! fax : +47 2 50 05 55 ! ! ! net : tor@geomatic.no ! ! ! space: Eckersbergsgate 31 ! ! ! 0266 OSLO 2 Norway ! ! O---------------------------!------------------------------------------------O ______________________________ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 05:07 CDT From: Institute for Intelligent Systems Subject: net/currency Tor - i did misunderstand. In the case of commercial software (and other mundane tangibles), I like the idea of net.currency. But don't you think there's an inherent danger that what my earlier post railed against might come to pass if an exchange standard is introduced to the net? "Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny" -mark langston ______________________________ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 06:54:48 -0800 (PST) From: John Frost Subject: Re: net.currency On Fri, 18 Dec 1992, Tor Langballe added his two cents: > > I thing you misunderstood my direction, I did'nt mean you had to pay to get > info, I meant software from existing software houses, say Adobe. > > If you want to purchase Adobe Illustrator, instead of using "old world" > transactions, you "barter" with cyberspace credits that you've earned > somehow. You really think that Adobe is going to "barter" with the thousands of people who want to purchase their products? Nope! They will just charge the going exchange rate of net.credits for dollars. Only the little software houses (btw, this concept would seem to work for things like clipart and GIFs) would be forced to barter in order to get some name recognition. The problem is large houses can better absorb money losses due to this system then small houses can. > The trouble is, how to earn them if you don't sell software > (I for one think software should be paid for, being a developer and all) > There would have to be an exchange between dollars etc and cyberspace credits, > which would make it less novel. > > As we live more and more in cyberspace, some form of currency will be needed, > or what do other people think? I think that some form of currency already exists. Plastic. Credit Cards. Debit Cards. American Express. People use these forms everyday to buy software and the like from places like MACwharehouse, MICROwharehouse, etc.. All you need is a fax (fax/modem) and you've got access. OR goto Compuserve or Prodigy, these things you ask for already exist. Am I such a luddite for requesting we keep these fiscal transactions off the (world) net? I am personally against credit as it only makes the MNC's richer. Also I prefer cash since it is mostly untraceable and offers me privacy. Credit/Plasitic/Electronic transactions don't offer me any privacy. (Don't think that public encryption won't be cracked by some info house and the found information sold to corps that want to know your credit/personal record. It is a romantic idea however.) Enough for now... goto go earn some cold hard cash. -- If I told you this was from Gibson's next novel would you believe me? "Aaron Pursley was already Learing it back to Cincinatti in a plane that had no metal in it whatsoever, Karen had locked the goggles across her eyes and was talking non-stop to at least six people at once, and Rydell was sitting on the edge of her big white bed, starting to get the idea that something had changed." frost@netcom.com ______________________________ From: Steven J. Subject: re: turists comment Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 13:55:53 CST ______________________________ From: the! ->*shrug* -> ->I don't really *like* smileys, to tell you the truth. Neither do I, that's why I didn't use them. Steve J. White ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ______________________________ From: Steven J. Subject: AIA systems Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 14:35:49 CST I've thought of a few things re: AIA stuff... If a software system such as an AIA would exist wouldn't it take more than a new piece of code to do all the work that is being talked about? I think it would involve the development of a new communication protocol because these AIA's would have to have free reign of Internet i.e. getting onto systems without loggin into specific accounts and such. Am I missing something here? Steve J. White ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ______________________________ Date: 18 Dec 1992 13:36:34 -0800 (PST) From: Vlad the Impaler Subject: Re: AIA systems Steve J. White scribes: >If a software system such as an AIA would exist wouldn't it take more than a >new piece of code to do all the work that is being talked about? I think it >would involve the development of a new communication protocol because these >AIA's would have to have free reign of Internet i.e. getting onto systems >without loggin into specific accounts and such. Am I missing something here? No, not that I can tell. It would probably be possible to do it with the present structures in place, but it would be insanely complicated and annoying and huge a project just writing handlers for the protocols, etc... let alone write the AIA's themselves. If the AIA's would be written as currently planned, huge intelligent databases capable of growing, mating, etc..., the protocol bit would only complicate things further, and make the implementation even more inelegant and bulky. Yet at the same time, viewing the project as a whole, handling protocols and different machines would be a lot easier than the coding of the proposed AIAs themselves. I don't think you're missing anything, but I think the actual resolution of the intelligence and algorithms of the AIAs would be the MUCH MUCH bigger bone to swallow at the present. Questions o' my own: This is a bit far-fetched (even more-so than AIAs), but when dealing with AI there is always the concept/question of self-awareness/sentience. Supposing the AIA is implemented successfully, how would we police them? How could we even tell if an AIA was sentient or not? We, being unable to see what they are doing, only knowing what they GIVE us, would be quite blind to any other activities that an AIA might participate. With intelligence comes a will, and what is to be done if something of this sort gains a will and a drive of its own? Write the thing to always obey you, but if an AIA is to be self-modifying and able to grow in intelligence it could easily override anything that it was originally programmed to do. This probably sounds like a conspiracy-thing, but it's only curiosity. Would we end up like in Gibson-world and have some distant Turing Institute with logic bombs for every AIA in existene? Is there an easier solution to this? Just a few questions... Bret -bambrose@pomona.claremont.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Any amount of stupidity reflected from this merely shohs thaht mi pahrehnttz diht nohttt teytch mea wehl. >Steve J. White >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu > aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ______________________________ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:12 EST From: Matt Willis Subject: A call to arms Anyone interested in a BITNET relay chat, give me an e-yell. I think it'd be pretty interesting to organize a chat session on bitnet... mainly because it's quick, ultra-private (using negative high-numbers) and easy to use... If anyone's on BITNET and has no idea what RELAY is, I'd be more than happy to explain... While IRC chats are swell, they're just not as easy for us bit-netters... write me write me write me (I hate all the blathering idiots on public relay channels) P.S. I'd like to get on an internet connected service (so I can FTP and IRC). I know of MindVox and the Well, any suggestions on the best? +-------Matt-Willis--------------------------------+ | Matt Willis ASTMWILL@STETSON.BITNET | | Matt Willis Head of the Underground | | Matt Willis Robotech PBM List | +-------Matt-Willis--------------------------------+ "Absolutely alone in awareness of the mechanism." -Agrippa by W.G. ______________________________ From: ahawks (ravE on) Subject: Re: Details Article Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 16:44:14 MST Couldn't pass this reply up...I love talking about the state of popular media.... New fresh-scented *CONCEPCION%BABSON.bitnet@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | |Yo all, | Has anyone checked the Jan. '93 ish of Details? Most interessant. |William Gibson did a Q&A on style in the nineties that was very much in line |with the cyberpunk dogmas, naturally. | |"Will computers ever replace narcotics as a form of escape?" | - T.M. (Brooklyn, NY) |"Yes, but not until they're small enough to ingest nasally and in quantity. |But that's probably not going to take too long." | |"What will come of this new collaboration of the KGB and CIA?" | - J.D. (Long Beach, CA) |"Given that both organizations, long since rendered conceptually formless, are |gifted with the most marvelous communications hardware - low-level satellites |in particular - I would like to see them forge the ULTIMATE POP NETWORK. The |KGB should've really signed with MTV in the first place, but the KGB/CIA chann |still has terrific potential." | |"If machines get too powerful, will it be O.K. to pull the plug or will we hav |to treat them like people? (comments from the mailer: sound like a std. Blade |Runner q. to me)" - R. T. (Los Angeles, CA) | |"In the 1st place, machines are already 'too powerful'. In the second, do |you seriously imagine that any street-smart 'machine' is going to leave you |a 'plug' to 'pull'?" Honestly, I laughed at the Gibson "article" (just a regular celebrity Q&A)...It's entitled "the determinator: Cyberpunk author William Gibson on the style of technology and the technology of style"....Gibson & technology? Well, I guess things have changed since agrippa, but, does anybody remember the good-ole-daze when Gibson had a clunk-e typewriter? Now all of a sudden he's commenting on technology.... |There are also music articles on Meat Beat Manifesto spanning two pages, a bit |on the techno-pop groups in their British Music Column, Hey DJ. (specifical |groups: The Movement, Moby, Shamen, Utah Saints, The Prodigy, & Bizarre Inc.) |In addition, there's a one page ambivalent article on Mondo 2000. A blurb on |Anime-branded T-shirts was just seen. Anime t-shirts are already out there....I don't know why the said it was going to be a fashion-future-trend... The Mondo article was fairly decent, on target... It's a quick-gloss-glance overview of the mag, the culture, and the User's Guide.... The techno stuff was decent - Details has always been reporting on raves, probably the only K-mart-esque rag to do so....But, I guess that comes from their clubkids tradition, before they went gloss (remember 87?) |Now, my first reaction was "this is good, a lot more coverage than usual on th |'edge'." To the media hermits who don't know Details: It's a New York based |style mag that might carry a story on the "New Edge" or two, but not in these |numbers. Then my second reaction was slight dismay. To paraphrase a not-so- Hmm...They just report on what's NY-hip...If that happens to be new edge, then all the better.... |recent Spin article "if hip 12 year olds are dropping E, memorizing the M2K |Textbook, and going through used sci-fi book shoppes with McCafferey's Stormin |the Reality Studio in a fingerless gloved hand, then what are hip 20 year olds |supposed to do?" What issue was this in? I've got every issue back 6 years, but I dunno if I've seen this... |If our "hobby" is getting mainstream, must we take up roots and finding some |other movement that's more of an edge on the plane of corporate influenced |consciousness? Or must we stay loyal to the 'movement' and stick with what we |know? After all, Details is pretty hip and it'll probably take five years for |it to filter down to a mallmuffin who's brain's been fried by subliminal corp |propaganda pumped in through those bubblegum music cassettes. Yet it could be |the beginning of an end. Hehehe, welp, where I live, Details is mallmuff fodder once it hits the stands....At least, in the sek-tors of Denver I hang out in.... |Questions, replies, flames? Come on in and initiate this newcomer. Welp, a couple of analogies for ya....I was talking with a stylish friend today, and we both agreed that know was the time to cut off our top-knots, since they're getting too mainstream for comfort...I remember him saying "I'd rather go Caeser [what we call those real-short/almost-skin haircuts w/ long 90210 sideburns] and be sad about having to change my style, rather then have a top-knot now that everyone else here in BFE does..." It all comes down to your reasons for being in to what you're into...My friend, obviously, is concerned about staying on the edge and sacrificing his own happiness to an extent to do so....It's fine with me, too.... It all comes down to where do you put yourself in the cultural-curve - is it ok to stay a step ahead AND a step behind? is it ok to be mainstream? Naturally, a lot of people will say "yes", beause it's sort of a taboo to be stylish and into subcultures before they hit mainstream, for some dumb reason.... My opinion is, whether you're making the curve, following the curve, or riding the crest of the curve, all have their purpose, none is better than the other - you can't have leaders w/o followers and vice versa.... People have been saying that cyberpunk is out since 1984.....Welp, the cyberpunk crowd continues to be near that forefront of the curve, because the new edge is filled with inquisitive creative open minds that constantly morph their thoughts....The more mainstream you get, the dsmaller the proportion of morph-ers are out there, and the more mallmuffs, thus the culture starts to die....In the meantime, those at the forefront have continued to morph.... Cyberpunk will never die, it will just keep morphing into the future. The Name will change, and so will everything else. SOUNDBITE (tm) GlossFloss Int'l Inc. =) | Chris Concepcion | Concepcion@Babson.Bitnet | Prodigy:NKCR72D | A rider on the digital wind | |The Face: "What do you fear most for the future?" |Colin Angus: "The thing I most welcome - the apocalypse." | |Gavin Hills: "Invade my space, compact my disc, shrink my knob and turn me |into a blue hedgity-hog." | |Night, all. -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ From: ahawks (ravE on) Subject: Who Had Agrippa Archived on FTP? Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 17:19:05 MST Whoever has Agrippa archived at an FTP site, please let me know... Thanx in advance.... -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 16:59:37 PST From: mark@ganymede.apple.com (Mark Baldwin) Subject: Re: Details Article :: It all comes down to your reasons for being in to what you're :: into...My friend, obviously, is concerned about staying on the edge :: and sacrificing his own happiness to an extent to do so....It's fine :: with me, too.... :: :: It all comes down to where do you put yourself in the cultural-curve - :: is it ok to stay a step ahead AND a step behind? is it ok to be :: mainstream? :: :: Naturally, a lot of people will say "yes", beause it's sort of a taboo :: to be stylish and into subcultures before they hit mainstream, for :: some dumb reason.... :: :: My opinion is, whether you're making the curve, following the curve, :: or riding the crest of the curve, all have their purpose, none is :: better than the other - you can't have leaders w/o followers and vice :: versa.... :: :: People have been saying that cyberpunk is out since 1984.....Welp, the :: cyberpunk crowd continues to be near that forefront of the curve, :: because the new edge is filled with inquisitive creative open minds :: that constantly morph their thoughts....The more mainstream you get, :: the dsmaller the proportion of morph-ers are out there, and the more :: mallmuffs, thus the culture starts to die....In the meantime, those at Wait a minute...is this conversation REALLY occuring??? -mark. ______________________________ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:45:53 -0800 (PST) From: Loveweasle Subject: #future hey I've been hearing about the sunday c0nversation on #future. one Question however: what Time is it? Thanks in advance for yer help. fisel@eskimo.com ------------------------------------------------------- Down in a hole and they've put all the stones in their place I've eaten the sun so my tongue has been burned from the taste I have been guilty of kicking myself in the teeth I will speak no more of my feelings beneath -Jerry Cantrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------ god i'm such a conformist with these sigs ______________________________ From: ahawks (gogo is insane) Subject: Who's Who of the InterNet Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 22:24:01 MST Just about done with the FAQ.... One of the sections is a "who's who" of on-line 'celebrities', and appears in the file like this: V. Important Person Musician/Author John Q. NetPublic Hacker/Writer So, if you are someone who would like to be mentioned in the file (no email addrresses are given out), or if you know of someone who you feel garners recognition, please send relevant info. (including a basic summary of credentials in-case I fall knowledge-impaired) to: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu I am looking for on-line people from all walks of life, including: hackers (in the underground sense), writers, magazine editors, artists, musicians, DJs, NetGurus, authors, or any other characteristic that might seperate onesself from the mass.net.public. Thanks in advance. -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 00:28:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth Schwartz Subject: Who's Who of the InterNet alt.folklore.computers has something like a 1000-person whos.who.on.the.net list. I don't know if it is archived but it reappears there periodically Add one little bit on the end... Think of 'potato,' how's it spelled? You're right phonetically, but what else...? There ya go...alright! -- Vice President Dan Quayle correcting a student's correct spelling of the word 'potatoe' during a spelling bee at an elementary school in Trenton. _________________________________________________________________________ | | | That's all for today! | | To send a message to the list: future@nyx.cs.du.edu | | To subscribe/unsubscribe/change format: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | All other requests: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | List Maintainer is: (andy [aka hawkeye]) ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu | |_________________________________________________________________________| | | | The opinions expressed in FutureCulture are those of the individual | | author only. | |_________________________________________________________________________| 1992/157.txt100664 1035 144 57724 6475043543 11501 0ustar darrenusersFrom - Wed Jan 14 11:32:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mrco.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA02366; Sun, 20 Dec 92 01:33:18 EST Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA06572; Sun, 20 Dec 92 01:29:38 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12113; Sat, 19 Dec 92 23:30:09 MST From: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (andy) Message-Id: <9212200630.AA12113@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: FutureCulture Digest #157 To: future-digest@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 23:30:08 MST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Status: R ______________________________________________________________________ |______________ / | | / | | u t u r e <___________ u l t u r e | _______________________________________________________________________| Issue #157 Saturday, December 19th 1992 Today's Topics: --------------- Call for Comments About Computing and the Future Call for Comments About Computing and the Future (fwd) Cloaking mode disengaged... Comet speaks on several topics: re: #future re: local feeling thermometer Re: Seattle (Re: local feeling thermometer) Seattle (Re: local feeling thermometer) __________________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 23:36:15 PST From: "Comet" Subject: Cloaking mode disengaged... Comet speaks on several topics: Phone: 415/593-0500 Hello Future, AIA is more like a \/\/orm than a |/IRUS; look at the mode of propagation. Star Trek--the commune! All aboard the good ship "Liberty"! Or was it "Freedom"? Or was it "Liberator"? Yep, we'll have plenty of space to hack our warez in the informational economy, out on our own. I don't know, quite, that it is really ~necessary~ to be physically separated, when we can all be together virtually, with much more psychological ease (IMHO). We can be partitioned within an exclusive grouping of our co-experimenters, or we can just "jack-in" ;) during our ^day^, and socialize with `outsiders' at other times, as is our wont. There are More bisexuals in futuretropic arenas then elsewhen. Raving is fun. The -control- issue is... `fascinating.' The ravees ain't the same class as the ravitours--they're not even close. Why are the members of the first class getting rich off the members of the second, when the "rave ethic" is irrelevently equalitarian? The engine cycles on. Feel the beat. Look around you. Smell the future. It's close. Listen. Can you feel it? Telephone technology--beepers are proliferating, for SOCIAL (distinct from business) reasons. This is indicative of a larger change then the emergence of cyberpunk culture. [Pay attention; you will be given an unexpected Test.] My locale is undergoing a swing of optimism. What's it like by you? Mythology is also on its way UP. I'm enjoying the information age. Society hasn't been as much fun since the 1920's! (Well, at least, men's clothing styles haven't been as much fun since the 1920's). Ain't drugz grande? Most Xcellent! Use with care. Love. *hug* -------- Comet Opinions (not facts) are shared by me. 437 Wessex Way Facts (not opinions) are. Belmont, CA 94002-2757 Ambiguities left four write two discussion. ______________________________ From: Steven J. Subject: re: #future Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 15:57:43 CST ______________________________ From: the! ->hey I've been hearing about the sunday c0nversation on #future. -> ->one Question however: what Time is it? -> ->Thanks in advance for yer help. It's scheduled for 2000 UT. See your local encyclopedia/dictionary for conversion time for your local time. I haven't exactly been the best as far as being ther when it happens but that's the scheduled time. Steve J. White ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ______________________________ From: Steven J. Subject: re: local feeling thermometer Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 16:08:38 CST ______________________________ From: the! ->My locale is undergoing a swing of optimism. What's it like by you? It sucks. Milwaukee is one of the most racial, discriminatory cities in the country. I wouldn't even attempt to say that people are optimistic here. If they are, they're naive, at best. I need a change of surroundings and environment BIG time. But, alas, graduation isn't until December of 1993. After that... Steve J. White ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ______________________________ From: ahawks (bubble boy) Subject: re: local feeling thermometer Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 17:21:26 MST New fresh-scented *Steven J.* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | |From the cyberdeck of Comet... | |->My locale is undergoing a swing of optimism. What's it like by you? | |It sucks. Milwaukee is one of the most racial, discriminatory cities in the |country. I wouldn't even attempt to say that people are optimistic here. Hehehe, don't leave out Denver....Colorado is one of the most schizophrenic states there is in the US....First, we have Boulder, which is one of the most liberal places in America, comperable to Berkeley where Berk's, pot, and an acoustic guitar are the required uniform, and then on the other hand we have a bunchload of farmers, survivalist Uzi-totin' mountain-men hermits, and all-around Buf0rds... It was the Buf0rds that voted in ammedment 2, which makes it legal to discriminate against homosexuals...If you live in colorado and are homosexual (even remotely bisexual, I imagine) you can be fired from your job on that basis.... This is all because of a bunch of fascist Bible-shielded cavemen , such as Bill McCartney, coach of the CU Buffs (football [American football, for non-USers]...they think homosexuals seek special rights, which is complete bull....Since when did the homosexual community get together and decide to seek minority status? That's never happened, not to my knowledge.... Oh, BTW. we also have a huge skinhead/KKK population...I'm sure some of you have heard of Shawn Slater, who's nothing more than a hate-"Stir-it-up"-monger, who I run into around town occasionally... Luckily, his high school class graduated before I was a freshman, otherwise I might've killed him, since he went to the same high school... This is the duplicity of Denver - I'm going to a rave tonite, and I'm pretty sure that I'll run into some skinheads afterwards....Tonite I'll probly dance with some guys and be free and open, and then afterwards, the other side of living in Denver hits in - I'll see some skinheads at my favorite coffeehouse, and then tomorrow I'm sure I'll read more about Ammendment 2 in the paper.... PS: If you *have* to travel in Denver (I support the boycoters, just to teach the openly-ignorant of our state a lesson), stay in LoDo (lower downtown) or up in Boulder, which are the more liberal portions of the state... The other day I was talking to a friend of mine who knows about this FutureCulture list, And he mentioned "has anybody brought up the fact that you're talking about the future of culture and that it's originating from the most bass-ackwards state in the country..." PPS: Hope some of you caught what Jerry garcia had to say about Am. 2 on eMpTV news, recently....His perspective was on-target... |If they are, they're naive, at best. I need a change of surroundings and |environment BIG time. But, alas, graduation isn't until December of 1993. |After that... So, hmm, other than a converted boat-turned-commune, what's going to be the geographical locale of the future? I would've voted for Seattle, but the whole grunge-scene has changed my opinion....Maybe Osaka, Japan will suffice....Maybe Manchester, if it can recover from the rave-cyclone.... |Steve J. White |----------------------------------------------------------------------------- | aragorn@convex.csd.uwm.edu | aragorn@csd4.csd.uwm.edu -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 18:24:08 -0800 From: Brian Willoughby Subject: Seattle (Re: local feeling thermometer) | New fresh-scented *Steven J.* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | |If they are, they're naive, at best. I need a change of | |surroundings and environment BIG time. But, alas, graduation isn't | |until December of 1993. After that... | | So, hmm, other than a converted boat-turned-commune, what's going | to be the geographical locale of the future? | | I would've voted for Seattle, but the whole grunge-scene has | changed my opinion....Maybe Osaka, Japan will suffice....Maybe | Manchester, if it can recover from the rave-cyclone.... What does grunge have to do with anything? I've been here 4.25 years and I wouldn't know grunge from shit. Just ignore it if you don't like it. The only good Seattle-local band I know of is *SadHappy*, WAILINGFUCKINGBASSANDDRUMSANDSAX in their own words. Of course, maybe I shouldn't try to make Seattle sound good in spite of grunge. Sprawl is ugly. Then again, I can't stop the deluge, so I might as well attract intelligent, interesting individuals to Seattle... Read "Death of a City", by Frank Herbert in his short-story collection, _Eye_. If my memory (and opinion) serves me, this is a cyberpunk 'hic jacet' for Seattle. | ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation Since this is my intro, I might as well ask a few potentially embarrassing questions: What is a Buf0rd? From context, it sounds like an anti-BuFu! What about In/f0rmation? Have anything to do with track 3 of Propaganda's "1234" release? (I know this album isn't much more than an exercise in overproduction from the same folks that brought you "the seeds of love", but the cadence of the lyric right after the Rap is the same as your spelling) --- Brian Willoughby Xware Design Engineer, BSEE NCSU, ex-Microsoft BrianW@SoundS.WA.com Sound Consulting and Signal Processing Software NeXTmail welcome - NO EMAIL SOLICITATION without prior permission ______________________________ From: ahawks (jedi master) Subject: Re: Seattle (Re: local feeling thermometer) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 21:21:38 MST New fresh-scented *Brian Willoughby* (150% real fruit juices!) says: | |What does grunge have to do with anything? I've been here 4.25 years |and I wouldn't know grunge from shit. Just ignore it if you don't like |it. The only good Seattle-local band I know of is *SadHappy*, |WAILINGFUCKINGBASSANDDRUMSANDSAX in their own words. | |Of course, maybe I shouldn't try to make Seattle sound good in spite of |grunge. Sprawl is ugly. | |Then again, I can't stop the deluge, so I might as well attract |intelligent, interesting individuals to Seattle... | |Read "Death of a City", by Frank Herbert in his short-story collection, |_Eye_. If my memory (and opinion) serves me, this is a cyberpunk 'hic |jacet' for Seattle. Seattle seems to me to a be a 'cyberpunk' city....Kind of America's Chiba... Don't ask why, but every cp-fiction sotry I write, I have at least part of it set in Seattle (or a character from Seattle or something sim..) || ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation | |Since this is my intro, I might as well ask a few potentially |embarrassing questions: | |What is a Buf0rd? From context, it sounds like an anti-BuFu! Buford - people living hopeless consrtained existences. they take up space. they contribute to the destruction of the world, when they could be dead. they live in mobile homes. they are proud of their nra membership and brag about it. they might be related to themselves. they drive dusty blue ford pickups with a confederate flag bumper sticker, and that "ASK FIRST!" sticker they drive in Winnebagos when they retire. now they have many more bumper stickers, one for each state they've visited. when retired, Buford couples look exactly the same, and dress alike in shopping malls. young buford girls can be found in shopping malls. know them by the overpowering sense of hairspray. know them by their gum popping. know them by their inability to survive outside the domain of other fellow Buford girls. young buford guys can also be found in shopping malls, but most of the time you can find them spinning donuts in their father's car. their interests revolve around cars, cb radios, and getting laid. i hate these people. i seriously think there should be an iq/stupidity-test to be allowed to live in suburbia. if you think about it, most of these people contribute more negatively to the state of the world, then in a positive way. they're the kind of people you see on "Cops", with domestic disturbance calls. PS, this is all relative...I'm probly a buford to somebody else out there (I'd like to meet that person, tho! =)....Everyone's a buford to someone else...We all have our own personal likes and dislikes... I get stereotypical and pissed off like when I have to go to a shopping mall , and I just say to myself, "jesus people, let's evolve already! evolve or die....!" I think the world would be a much better place if everyone tried acid at least once, but no more than 100 times, over a long period of time. This would kill the Buf0rd-sin-dr0me altogether. Then you're either completely in tune with reality, permanently insane, or dead. Everyone go trip and report back to me tomorrow. =) PS: Just because you live in BFE doesn't make you a Buford. You could live in NYC and still be a buford, and I know some people who live in BFE who are really out there (subjectively, not geographically) |What about In/f0rmation? Have anything to do with track 3 of |Propaganda's "1234" release? (I know this album isn't much more than an |exercise in overproduction from the same folks that brought you "the |seeds of love", but the cadence of the lyric right after the Rap is the |same as your spelling) Just coincidence...."In/f0rmation" is just "information". The slash is there because it seperates the word into the phrase "in formation", like, what are the patterns of information, does information really want to be free, and all sorts of other subliminal implications that are only half-thought out and that i'm making up right now. The '0' replaces the 'o' because it goes back to the eLiTe daze, and because it's binary.....yeah, that's the......=) |--- |Brian Willoughby Xware Design Engineer, BSEE NCSU, ex-Microsoft |BrianW@SoundS.WA.com Sound Consulting and Signal Processing Software |NeXTmail welcome - NO EMAIL SOLICITATION without prior permission -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ From: ahawks (jedi master) Subject: Call for Comments About Computing and the Future (fwd) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 21:24:23 MST From: Gary Chapman Subject: Call for Comments About Computing and the Future To: Multiple recipients of list CPSR PLEASE CIRCULATE THIS WHEREVER YOU FEEL IT IS APPROPRIATE BUT ONLY WHERE YOU FEEL IT IS APPROPRIATE AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE YOUR SAY ABOUT COMPUTING IN THE FUTURE This is Gary Chapman, director of the Cambridge, Massachusetts, office of Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility. I edit The CPSR Newsletter, a quarterly publication that goes to all CPSR members and about 400 other people, including a lot of policymakers, members of Congress, administration officials, etc. We're going to try something unusual for the next CPSR Newsletter, and I'm putting out a call for help. We're going to publish a special issue on "What the Clinton Administration Can Do For The Computing Profession and the Public." I'm sending out this message to ask people to send me SHORT contributions to this issue, just brief comments about what the new administration can do to help support computing in the United States, or perhaps the world. Here are a few basic guidelines for these submissions: 1. SHORT MEANS SHORT -- In order to publish as many of these as we can, we need to keep each contribution to about 100-150 words, max, one or two paragraphs. In fact, anything longer will probably be eliminated out of fairness to others. 2. YOU MUST IDENTIFY YOURSELF -- Again, briefly, with just your name and one line that says something about you, such as Joe Blow or Sally Smith, Programmer, BillyBob Corporation, or Centerville, Ohio, or something like that, whatever you prefer. 3. ADDRESS ISSUES OF PUBLIC POLICY -- In order to make these contributions relevant to the Clinton administration, they should concern issues about which government can or should do something, or stop doing, whatever. These include major issues such as privacy, access to information, computer networks like the Internet or NREN, R&D priorities, equitable access to computers, intellectual property, defense policy, risks to the public, etc. We're not really interested in contributions that are self-serving, parochial, excessively arcane or trivial, belligerently and unconstructively critical, and so on. We will favor messages that discuss the intersection of computing and major issues of concern to the public at large. 4. PLEASE INCLUDE A WORKABLE E-MAIL ADDRESS -- In case I have to get back to you about the text. We won't publish e-mail addresses, I promise. 5. GET ALL CONTRIBUTIONS TO ME BY JANUARY 15, 1993. My e-mail address is chapman@silver.lcs.mit.edu. This is not limited to people in the United States, although overseas contributors will have to make a case for what the Clinton administration should do to help international computing -- the focus will be on U.S. government policy. We're going to try and get this issue into the hands of the key players on computing and high tech policy in the new administration. For the most part we already know who those people are, and we're talking to them about the issues that CPSR is working on. This newsletter will give them a good impression, we hope, of the concerns of the computing profession and people who use computer networks. Consider this an opportunity for a kind of "hard copy" town hall. Thanks for your help! Get those messages coming! Gary Chapman Coordinator The 21st Century Project Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility Cambridge, MA chapman@silver.lcs.mit.edu |----- End Included Message ----- -- ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu ______________________________ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 20:41:23 -0800 (PST) From: Al Billings Subject: Re: Seattle (Re: local feeling thermometer) On Sat, 19 Dec 1992, jedi master wrote: > Seattle seems to me to a be a 'cyberpunk' city....Kind of America's Chiba... Obviously, you've never lived here, man. If there is one thing the Greater Seattle Metorplex is, it is GREEN and DAMP. That's about it. The city only have hald a million people with another million spread out around it. Until this last year, most folks would have had about one choice for ways to get Usenet and mail. We aren't as big as people seem to think. OH, and I still think Soundgarden is the bast Seattle band. Wassail, Al ______________________________ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 21:40:02 -0800 (PST) From: John Frost Subject: Re: Seattle (Re: local feeling thermometer) On Sat, 19 Dec 1992, jedi master yoga wrote: > New fresh-scented *Brian Willoughby* (150% real fruit juices!) says: > | > |Of course, maybe I shouldn't try to make Seattle sound good in spite of > |grunge. Sprawl is ugly. Yep!. However, if you want coffee Seattle and Portland are the spraw sites to live in. > Seattle seems to me to a be a 'cyberpunk' city....Kind of America's Chiba... > Don't ask why, but every cp-fiction sotry I write, I have at least > part of it set in Seattle (or a character from Seattle or something sim..) I think you might have read one too many Shadowrun stories. I can see Seattle as a cyberpunk city. But Los Angeles (maybe San Francisco ) already is. I was walking Alvarado street in the rain passing a Sushi bar, a Taco Stand and I heard at least five different languages spoken. All I needed was a fucking flying car and I'd be on the set of Bladerunner (which was playing at a theatre nearby). I'm not saying this is a good thing mind you... I'd rather be living in Portland. Oh, if you write cp-fiction where can I find some of it... Despite what I am about to say, or maybe because of it, I would like to read your work. > |What is a Buf0rd? From context, it sounds like an anti-BuFu! > > Buford - people living hopeless consrtained existences. > they take up space. > they contribute to the destruction of the world, when they > could be dead. > they live in mobile homes. [Rest of tirade deleted] Andy, you seem to be a very angry person. Yet I suspect that, as Malcolm X did (although maybe not to the same scale), you are just stating the truth as you see it. > > PS, this is all relative...I'm probly a buford to somebody else out > there (I'd like to meet that person, tho! =)....Everyone's a buford to > someone else...We all have our own personal likes and dislikes... > > I get stereotypical and pissed off like when I have to go to a > shopping mall , and I just say to myself, "jesus people, let's > evolve already! evolve or die....!" > So taking this to its conclusion, everyone would be dead. This may happen anywayj (for instance , any self respecting AI would see the current human race/society for what it is and terminate us), but I would like to think that you have other suggestions for what to do with the Bufords of the world? -- If I told you this was from Gibson's next novel would you believe me? "Aaron Pursley was already Learing it back to Cincinatti in a plane that had no metal in it whatsoever, Karen had locked the goggles across her eyes and was talking non-stop to at least six people at once, and Rydell was sitting on the edge of her big white bed, starting to get the idea that something had changed." frost@netcom.com _________________________________________________________________________ | | | That's all for today! | | To send a message to the list: future@nyx.cs.du.edu | | To subscribe/unsubscribe/change format: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | All other requests: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu | | List Maintainer is: (andy [aka hawkeye]) ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu | |_________________________________________________________________________| | | | The opinions expressed in FutureCulture are those of the individual | | author only. | |_________________________________________________________________________| 1992/158.txt100664 1035 144 143540 6475043550 11510 0ustar darrenusersFrom - Wed Jan 14 11:32:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mrco.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA02627; Mon, 21 Dec 92 01:40:06 EST Received: from nyx.cs.du.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA04962; Mon, 21 Dec 92 01:32:27 -0500 Received: by nyx.cs.du.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24264; Sun, 20 Dec 92 23:30:18 MST From: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (andy) Message-Id: <9212210630.AA24264@nyx.cs.du.edu> X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of Denver. The University has neither control over nor responsibility for the opinions or correct identity of users. Subject: FutureCulture Digest #158 To: future-digest@nyx.cs.du.edu Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 23:30:17 MST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Status: R ______________________________________________________________________ |______________ / | | / | | u t u r e <___________ u l t u r e | _______________________________________________________________________| Issue #158 Sunday, December 20th 1992 Today's Topics: --------------- bUf0rD Bundle-O-Commentary (get it while it's hot) evolution of mailing lists FutureCulture Digest #156 Internet access (Re: Seattle (Re: local feeling thermometer)) Keywords: Locale, Optimism, Future ominous coincidence re: local feeling thermometer re: local feeling thermometer Re: ominous coincidence Re: Seattle (Re: local feeling thermometer) Those AIA's... __________________________________________________________________________ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:29:08 -0800 (PST) From: Loveweasle Subject: Re: Seattle (Re: local feeling thermometer) Gee.. I thought Andy pretty much tagged a bUford in my mind. He only omitted the gunrack but I think that was implied. I recently spent a year in a small burned-out Pennsyvania coal town, believe me I know a buford when I see one. I happen to like Seattle and I also like "grunge" sue me I grew up with it. I think what is meant about Seattle being a "cyberpunk" city is about the attitude of the various cultures here(it is a progressive city) and not the size of the area. It qualifies as a large city and has a culture as oppsed to L.A. which while it is huge has no charcter except that derived from it's sheer size. Nothing wrong with that but it's a different experience altogether. L.A. residents and fans please direct flames to: fisel@eskimo.com ------------------------------------------------------- Down in a hole and they've put all the stones in their place I've eaten the sun so my tongue has been burned from the taste I have been guilty of kicking myself in the teeth I will speak no more of my feelings beneath -Jerry Cantrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ______________________________ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 23:03:44 -0800 (PST) From: John Frost Subject: Re: Seattle (Re: local feeling thermometer) On Sat, 19 Dec 1992, Loveweasle wrote: > > Gee.